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General => Archive & Library (Read Only) => Topic started by: CougarSE on December 17, 2005, 11:30:41 PM

Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on December 17, 2005, 11:30:41 PM
Well I may be the first to do this swap ever. It does infact work. I figured I would share my time with all of you. Oh and pics will soon follow.



 
 
 
 
 
 
 

3.8 T-5 Conversion



 
 
 
This swap was performed on my 88 Cougar with a 3.8. To start with I will say this was a pretty strait forward swap, almost identical to a T-5 swap behind a 5.0. Here is all the info that myself and others have compiled to do this conversion to your own car.
 
1. Transmission in question.
 
A 94 or 95 Mustang with a 3.8 is the donor we are looking for. The T-5 transmission in these 3.8 Mustangs is actually the same T-5 that was behind the 5.0 in 89 and prior mustangs other than gear ratios, it has the same torque rating. The 5.0 90 and up Mustangs received a T-5 with a higher torque rating of around 300 Ft-lbs.
 
Here is a small chart with gear ratios and torque ratings.
 
YEAR
MODEL
ENGINE
TORQUE MAX
1ST
2ND
3RD
4TH
5TH
Input shaft length
Input shaft dia. (in)
86-89
Mustang
5.0
265
3.35
1.93
1.29
1.00
.68
7.18
.668
90-93
Mustang
5.0
300
3.35
1.99
1.33
1.00
.68
7.18
.668
92-93
Mustang
2.3
240
3.97
2.34
1.46
1.00
.79
7.41
.59
94-95
Mustang
3.8
265
3.35
1.93
1.29
1.00
.73
7.85
.668
94-95
Mustang
5.0
300
3.35
1.99
1.33
1.00
.68
7.85
.668
 
So you can see that the Sn-95 transmission is in fact longer than the older fox. Measuring the bell housing’s on the floor comes out ¾ inch difference between the two. Some say ford did this to place the shifter further back in the Sn-95 chassis.
 
2. Flywheel interchangeability
 
Through my own research I’ve found what flex plates fit what cars.
 
83 and 84 3.8’s with Aod’s use the same flex plate.
85, 86 and 87 use the same Aod Flex plate.
88’s use the same Flex plate as all the MN-12 cars and the 94 and 95 Mustang; this must be a change in balance that came with the design of the SEFI 3.8’s.
96 and up fly wheels have a different balance as well.
This limits us to two years only for our flywheel.
It is unknown if a Supercoupe flywheel will work. It should though.
 
With this information we can see that there were three different 3.8 flex plate/fly wheel balances over the course of the Fox Cougar/Bird.
 
So without rebalancing, the Mustang fly wheel will only work on the 88 Cougar/Bird 3.8. At this time I am unsure of the actual balances of these engines.
 
The Mustang 5.0 uses a 157 tooth flywheel and the 3.8 uses a 164. I didn’t actually put my flex plate up to the fly wheel out of the Mustang to see if they were the same size but I believe they were. For some reason the flywheel out of a 3.8 uses an 11” clutch and the 5.0 uses a 10.5” clutch. I’m unsure why Ford did this. Also the flex plate out of a 5.0 is 164 tooth.
 
Make sure you get the bolts for the fly wheel. The flex plate bolts are too short and lack the required shoulder to locate the flywheel properly.
 
 
3. Crossmember.
 
Your Crossmember can be used without cutting and sliding it. The Sn-95 Transmission pad is further back than the fox T-5. On the Sn-95 the crossmember is even further back than a fox so it uses a steal plate that moves the mount back about 2 inches. You will have to remove this and mount your transmission mount (and exhaust hanger) strait to the transmission. With this setup my mount was dead center in the crossmember.
 
4. Driveshaft.
 
With the transmission being ¾ of an inch longer than the Aod in our cars we run into problems with the driveshaft. In my car the driveshaft slides into the transmission and bolts to the axle pinion but there isn’t a safe amount of play for the driveshaft to slide in and out with suspension compression. I will be shortening the driveshaft when funds allow. Since you’re going to have to modify the current driveshaft you may as well use this as an opportunity to upgrade. Use a driveshaft out of an Aerostar, these are aluminum. It will need to be shortened but you will have to do that to your steal one anyway. You will have to use the yoke off of your current driveshaft.
 
5. Pedals.
 
Any pedal assembly out of a 79 to 93 Mustang will work. The pedal assembly in your Cougar/Bird is actually stamped with provisions for a clutch but the pieces are missing. The pedal swap is with out a doubt the hardest part of the whole swap. It took me about 2 hours to change the pedals. Lots of hunting for bolts in the dark and you have about 7 switches and relays to unplug in order to remove the column. While you have the column out go ahead and remove the steering wheel and pull out the shift handle and rod for the Aod.
The pedal assembly out of the Sn-95 only bolts the firewall, unlike the fox witch bolts to the column mount and one bolt above the column and into the dash.
 
6. Clutch Cable
 
You can use any Clutch cable. I used the one out of the 94 Mustang. No problems at all. The Cougar/Bird even has the holes for the cable bracket drilled into the driver side frame right behind the sway bar mount. The hole in the firewall should be plugged off, just to the right of the booster. It is easiest to mount the cable to the quadrant first before the clutch fork. You will more than likely have to disengage the plastic paw on the quadrant in order to attach the cable to the fork. Once done all you have to do is push the pedal down and let out and it will auto adjust. I see no need to go to an adjustable cable and an aluminum quadrant. I’m not going to be shifting my 3.8 hard enough to have the plastic one deflect.
 
7. Block Plate
 
With a 5.0 T-5 swap you have to change the block plate because the starters are in different spot due to the fly wheel/ flex plate tooth count. On the 3.8 you can use your current block plate but you should get the one from the donor anyway. You won’t be able to reattach the torque converter access plate on the T-5 so your fly wheel and clutch will be more exposed to the elements. Also I’m not sure but there may be a problem with the starter hole. But I believe them to be the same. I laid them together to see if the bolt holes lined up, I didn’t notice the hole for the starter being different but I didn’t look very hard.
 
8. Pilot Bearing.
 
One of the biggest concerns for this swap was weather the 3.8 crank was properly drilled for the pilot bearing. Well your worry’s are over. A new bearing for a 94 mustang worked just fine. Also note here that since the 3.8 transmission’s input shaft is the same as the 5.0 they use the same pilot bearing. This was verified at Autozone, same part number. Only the 2.3 used a smaller input shaft.
 
9. Starter
 
With out a doubt you will have to use the 94/95 starter. I ground down the housing on my starter, but still it wouldn’t fit. This isn’t a problem because again you will have another upgrade. The mini starter spins my car over much faster than the old one ever did. You can easily wire it up by attaching the solenoid wire on the new starter to the larger starter wire. Since you’re not changing the solenoid setup on the fender well power will only be at the starter when you turn the key. Unlike the Mustang that routes power to the starter all the time.
 
10. Transmission Mount.
 
Your car will use the same mount as the Mustang. Seems like all ford fox mounts are the same, period.
 
11. Neutral switch and Reverse light wiring.
 
The wiring for this swap is easy. On the transmission you have four wires, two for the neutral safety switch and two for your reverse lights. With the change of the Sn-95 Ford eliminated the neutral safety switch on the transmission. You can do one of two things. The easiest way is to wire the neutral safety wires together but the car will start with the car in gear and the clutch pedal not pressed, unsafe! The best way would be wiring the clutch pedal switch up to the neutral safety switch, so the car would only start when you pressed the clutch.
On the left side of the transmission is the connector for the reverse lights. Easy, just wire the pigtail you should have snipped at the junkyard up to the revere light wires.
Oh by the way here are the wire codes.
White/pink stripe and Red / light blue stripe for the neutral switch and Black/ pink stripe and White/ purple stripe for the reverse lights.
 
12. Exhaust clearance.
 
Probably the biggest problem with swapping the T-5 into the Cougar was the exhaust. The Cougar’s Y-pipe has catalytic converters on either side. The driver side converter is just in the way of the clutch fork. Actually the bottom of the converter were it meets the rest of the Y-pipe is the problem. You’ll be able to see the offending area when you attempt the swap. I just pounded it down a little less than a ¼ of an inch, then I ground down the contacting area of the clutch fork. I have about a ¼ of an inch clearance now.
The reason the Mustang doesn’t have a problem; its y-pipe comes together after the transmission, not before it.
Now another opportunity for an upgrade, you can snag the factory tube headers off of the 94/95 mustang. They will allow the use of an after market H-pipe designed for the 3.8 mustang. From there you can use a GT take off cat back exhaust, or a new cat back. The stock GT setup will be more than enough for the wimpy 3.8.
 
13. Speed sensor.
 
The Mustang uses a different count speedo drive gear than the Cougar/Bird. Unlike the fox Mustang the Sn-95 uses an electronic speedometer. So your speedometer will be off, and no you can’t use your Aod’s gear. I haven’t checked but that’s what other sites say. Your connector will plug right into the Mustang sensor.
 
14. Additional answers to possible questions.
 
Without the T/V cable hooked up your pedal will feel much lighter.
The shifter will come through the floor in the perfect spot.
The computer doesn’t need to be changed; besides there is no speed density 5 speed computer for the 3.8.
The Clutch cable goes under the oil pan above the K-Member.
If you get the floor pan shifter boot (not the pretty one, the one under it) it will give you a good idea of what area to cut.
 
15. Final thoughts.
 
I did this swap because the 230k mile transmission decided it didn’t want to shift easy anymore. I was able to get all the parts at U wrench it for $230. It was luck because you don’t usually see 94/95 mustangs at the junkyards so needless to say I snagged it all up. My car drives fine with this swap, the junkyard transmission shifts fine.
 
Enjoy, Claude
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on December 17, 2005, 11:32:10 PM
It doesn' look like the forum could post the table.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: MexCougar on December 18, 2005, 12:44:42 AM
Am I dreaming ? i`ll wait for tomorrow and see again this topic....

  That`s very nice, maybe some time i can install a t-5 into the old cat...Congratulations, i think you ignored some negative comments and simply did that because that whats you wanted. Simply amazing. I can`t wait for the images , too....
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Ether947 on December 18, 2005, 10:54:14 AM
Holy craps! Must see pics. Kudos to you sir. You deserve a medal. :)
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Tbird232ci on December 18, 2005, 01:41:17 PM
Dont get too excited, because the only flywheel we have figured out was the one that will work for the 88 3.8L. the 83-84 use their own flexplate, and the 85-87 use their own flexplate, and so far, we havnt found a flywheel to work with each of those years.

only other thing i see wrong with the article
Quote
They will allow the use of an after market H-pipe designed for the 3.8 mustang.
You use a fox body 5.0 h-pipe, and you have to slightly tweak it. The sn95's bring it down in different locations in the bay because of the k-member.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Jeremy Belcher on December 18, 2005, 01:54:10 PM
Nice article, it contains a few things that will save me some time when I finally do this (or attempt to do so) to my '87.

Quote from: Tbird232ci
the 83-84 use their own flexplate, and the 85-87 use their own flexplate, and so far, we havnt found a flywheel to work with each of those years.

Word.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on December 18, 2005, 03:49:04 PM
Yes I must give mad props to shawn for this.  He was much help.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on December 18, 2005, 05:50:09 PM
Day two of the swap and I'm having a small problem with the starter.  Whenever the car starts the starter drags the flywheel.  I'm sure this is my junkyard starter.  It did have water coming out of it when I unhooked it.  If the problem doesn't go away I will have the starter rebuilt.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Blackout on December 18, 2005, 09:37:49 PM
Very nice... makes me want to put one in my old 3.8 bird for gits and shiggles!
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Tbird232ci on December 18, 2005, 10:22:04 PM
Quote from: CougarSE
Yes I must give mad props to shawn for this.  He was much help.

:rice:
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Chuck W on December 18, 2005, 10:38:08 PM
I would just like to have one of those 3.8 T-5s to put behind the 2.9 in the Scorpio :hick:

Good job though. 

I would imagine if you dumped water out of the starter when you pulled it from the jy...it's a good bet it's just about toast ;)
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Bird351 on December 18, 2005, 11:30:55 PM
All we need now is someone to stroke a 3.8 out to the mid 4-liter range, which may just be possible if one of the V6 parts sites is right. :p
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on December 18, 2005, 11:33:00 PM
I'm not going that far with my car.  I just needed a transmission.
Title: I think...
Post by: srv1 on December 19, 2005, 12:43:45 AM
Quote from: Tbird232ci
Dont get too excited, because the only flywheel we have figured out was the one that will work for the 88 3.8L. the 83-84 use their own flexplate, and the 85-87 use their own flexplate, and so far, we havnt found a flywheel to work with each of those years.

only other thing i see wrong with the article

You use a fox body 5.0 h-pipe, and you have to slightly tweak it. The sn95's bring it down in different locations in the bay because of the k-member.


Hang on......

Quote from: CougarSE
2. Flywheel interchangeability

Through my own research I’ve found what flex plates fit what cars.

83 and 84 3.8’s with Aod’s use the same flex plate.
85, 86 and 87 use the same Aod Flex plate.
88’s use the same Flex plate as all the MN-12 cars and the 94 and 95 Mustang; this must be a change in balance that came with the design of the SEFI 3.8’s.
96 and up fly wheels have a different balance as well.
This limits us to two years only for our flywheel.
It is unknown if a Supercoupe flywheel will work. It should though.

With this information we can see that there were three different 3.8 flex plate/fly wheel balances over the course of the Fox Cougar/Bird.

So without rebalancing, the Mustang fly wheel will only work on the 88 Cougar/Bird 3.8. At this time I am unsure of the actual balances of these engines.

The Mustang 5.0 uses a 157 tooth flywheel and the 3.8 uses a 164. I didn’t actually put my flex plate up to the fly wheel out of the Mustang to see if they were the same size but I believe they were. For some reason the flywheel out of a 3.8 uses an 11” clutch and the 5.0 uses a 10.5” clutch. I’m unsure why Ford did this. Also the flex plate out of a 5.0 is 164 tooth.

Make sure you get the bolts for the fly wheel. The flex plate bolts are too short and lack the required shoulder to locate the flywheel properly.


Alright here is the scoop. All AOD 3.8's have the SAME flywheel. In middle of 88 they changed the numbers. Here it is:

84-87 AOD 3.8: E3SZ-6375-B
88-95 AOD 3.8 Incl Mustang: E9SZ-6375-B

If you break it down here is what you come up with:
E3=Made in year of 83 S=TBird Z=Ford Division replacement part
E9=Made in the year of 89 and the rest is the same. Ford does this to update their parts. So to answer everyones questions, all the 3.8FI motors are balanced the same. I looked up the harmonic balancers and they are different for the 88 and up 3.8's. Why? I dont know but from what I have been reading from the flexplates as a guide, the harmonic balancer could have more bolt holes for the pulley or timing marks are in a different location since 88 was the first year of MPFI and a single belt system. I would bet my bottom dollar that I'am 99.9% correct. How many bolts for the crank pulley does it have for the CFI vs the MPFI? Anyone? Also forget about the S/C 3.8. To me its a different animal by itself since the flexplates on those motors have no weights.

James
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: srv1 on December 19, 2005, 12:47:23 AM
One more thing.

84-87 AOD 3.8:


88-95 AOD 3.8:


I only use this as a reference to determine if the imbalance is different so I can determine if you can use a flywheel from a 3.8 Mustang.

James
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on December 19, 2005, 10:20:10 AM
Intresting bit of info there.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Jeremy Belcher on December 19, 2005, 01:15:00 PM
Quote from: srv1
So to answer everyones questions, all the 3.8FI motors are balanced the same.

All flexplate makers use a different flexplate for pre-88 and post-88 3.8s. If Ford had simply updated the design in 1988, but everything else was the same, then the aftermarket parts manufacturers would use the updated part for all 3.8s. But, this is not so.

The balance could be the same, but it is a guess.

85-87 3.8L AOD Flexplate------------------88-95 3.8L AOD Flexplate


These two don't look exactly the same...

http://www.knology.net/~belchja/flexplates.xls (http://"http://www.knology.net/~belchja/flexplates.xls")
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on December 19, 2005, 01:45:26 PM
Quote from: JeremyB
All flexplate makers use a different flexplate for pre-88 and post-88 3.8s. If Ford had simply updated the design in 1988, but everything else was the same, then the aftermarket parts manufacturers would use the updated part for all 3.8s. But, this is not so.

The balance could be the same, but it is a guess.


(http://"http://www.knology.net/%7Ebelchja/flexplates.xls")

I'm more inclined to go with this.  But srv1 has an intresting point
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Tbird232ci on December 19, 2005, 03:07:33 PM
88+ got balance shafts occasionally

if i remember correctly, the supercoupes and mn12's got a 0 balance, nuetral balance

the problem is, you can look up aftermarket parts all you want, aftermarket catalogs arnt always right, they pull up 4 lug parts for my dads mn12...yeah
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Jeremy Belcher on December 19, 2005, 04:23:12 PM
Quote from: Tbird232ci
88+ got balance shafts occasionally

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/ar90134.htm (http://"http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/ar90134.htm")
Quote
the problem is, you can look up aftermarket parts all you want, aftermarket catalogs arnt always right, they pull up 4 lug parts for my dads mn12...yeah

True, but I doubt four different manufactures are wrong about the flexplate application. (Stranger things have happened)

In edit..
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on December 19, 2005, 05:14:35 PM
I'm bettin' 99.9% chance the ballance of the '88 vs earlier 3.8 is different... Otherwise the aftermarket would have combined the two numbers, to reduce inventory...

EDIT copied from the Babcox rebuilder site...

1983 (After 4/1/83) -’87
In April 1983, Ford converted the 3.8L to a one-piece rear seal, so the slinger was no longer needed on the crank. This revised E3AE casting originally came with the shorter front main that measured 1.298˝ +/- from the front to the very back edge of the machined area.

1988-’95 FWD and RWD
The length of the front main was increased from about 1.298˝ to about 1.414˝ in 1988 because the front main was moved back about 0.125˝ when the front of the block was inset to make room for the gears for the balance shaft. There were a few of the earlier E3AE castings that came with the longer front main, but most of them were E8AE or E9DE castings. Some rebuilders used to make the early E3AE cranks into the later ones by machining the front main wider, but there are plenty of late cores available now so it’s probably not worth taking the time to convert them anymore.

AH HAAA... The early cranks can be machined to work in the in the '88-'95 engines...  So what does machining do??? Removes metal thus changing ballance.. The later flywheel may work on the earlier engine but it's definatly gonna be out of ballance(maybe not by much)..
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Thunder Chicken on December 19, 2005, 09:26:03 PM
Quote from: TurboCoupe50
Some rebuilders used to make the early E3AE cranks into the later ones by machining the front main wider, but there are plenty of late cores available now so it’s probably not worth taking the time to convert them anymore.

AH HAAA... The early cranks can be machined to work in the in the '88-'95 engines...  So what does machining do??? Removes metal thus changing ballance.. The later flywheel may work on the earlier engine but it's definatly gonna be out of ballance(maybe not by much)..

But Tom, you'd be removing metal at the center of the crank (the axis of rotation), and you'd be doing it evenly around the entire circumference of the main, so it wouldn't affect balance

I wonder if one could use the late flywheel so long as the late balancer was used as well?
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on December 19, 2005, 09:47:06 PM
Carmen I see what you are saying, so maybe it don't make a difference. As long as the front cheek of the #1&4 crank pin wasn't disturbed you are right... But the adding of a counterballance shaft inside the engine surely will... The flexplates pictured look very similar, but one appeared to have quite a bit of weight drilled out of it...

No matter what we gotta give props to CougarSE and Shawn for this one... Way to go guys...
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on December 20, 2005, 12:39:49 AM
I'm loving this car even more.  I wish shawn could have been here for the actuall swap.  But that would have been a hell of a drive for a tranny swap.

One thing though.  My motor mounts are toast.  The engine rocks horribly now.

Tom I noticed the older flywheel looked as if its weight had been drilled as well.  Don't qoute me but I think the 88 and up is a 38oz balance and the 87 down is a 28oz.  As shawn said the s/c are 0oz balance. 

Carmen I'll try to find out about the balancers.

Thanks Tom and by the way my name is Claude.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Haystack on December 20, 2005, 09:33:07 AM
That would be killer in my 87 car. Please find out the balance of the 87 cars. I will see what I can find.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Jeremy Belcher on December 20, 2005, 03:33:37 PM
I sent an e-mail to Venture Products (http://"http://ventureproducts.com/") asking them if the '82-'83 F100 had the same imbalance as '83-'87 car 3.8s. My guess is I won't get a response or I'll get a useless one...but it is worth a try. Their catalog shows the F100 3.8 has the same imbalance as the 351W and later model 302s (28.2 oz).

Another interesting oddity is found in ATP's (http://"http://www.atp-inc.com/") catalog. They list the correct flexplates for our cars. But, they show the flywheel for the '82-'83 F100 being the same as...
94-00 3.8 Mustang
89-95 3.8 Cougar w/SC & MT
Various 28oz engines

For whatever reason, several catalogs refer to the '82-'83 F100 3.8 as 230 cu. in.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on December 20, 2005, 03:46:40 PM
Quote from: JeremyB
Their catalog shows the F100 3.8 has the same imbalance as the 351W and later model 302s (28.2 oz).



Not sure of your defination of late model, but 302/5.0 from '82 have a 50oz imballance....
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Jeremy Belcher on December 20, 2005, 03:52:18 PM
Whoops.

Actually, they (Venture) have the '82-'83 F100 3.8 flywheel listed the same as 28oz and 50oz 302s. Are aftermarket catalogs created by retards?
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on December 21, 2005, 03:15:19 PM
here are the only pics I can get at the moment.  When I have a chance I'll get the car on a lift and take pics of the bottom.  I didn't have anyone to take pictures of me doing the swap.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Ether947 on December 22, 2005, 12:10:52 PM
ooo nice. it looks stock minus the shifter. looks like your parking brake works too. *envies* :D
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: shame302 on December 22, 2005, 12:36:28 PM
just got a chance too read through the thread...gongrats guys...awesome work!
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on December 22, 2005, 09:13:17 PM
Quote from: darkthunder
ooo nice. it looks stock minus the shifter. looks like your parking brake works too. *envies* :D
That shifter is off of a probe.  It was the only thing that would screw on.  I'm going to get a bullit shifter knob for it.  I'm going to get a nice shifter for it as well.And yes my parking brake works.  Every time I'm under the car I spray lubricant on the cables and bell crank assembly.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: TCclone on February 03, 2006, 01:41:39 PM
well is the 87 and older 3.8 a 28.5 inbalance? should be able to use the 351 flywheel. I see that the 3.8 has a 11 inch disc. isn't that what they used in the 351 truck?
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Jeremy Belcher on February 03, 2006, 01:47:08 PM
Quote from: TCclone
well is the 87 and older 3.8 a 28.5 inbalance? should be able to use the 351 flywheel. I see that the 3.8 has a 11 inch disc. isn't that what they used in the 351 truck?

No, it isn't a 28.5oz imbalance. Ford has used several different imbalances on 164 tooth flywheels.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on February 04, 2006, 02:18:53 AM
Also the 351 flywheel will not bolt up to the 3.8 right Jeremy?
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: MexCougar on February 04, 2006, 12:41:32 PM
Hey, Claude, how is going the living with the car now ? you can tell us some "driving impressions", how the 3.8 responds to a T-5, how high you change gears, the torque things, how feels in Overdrive, etc...
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: pro-five-oh on February 04, 2006, 01:52:04 PM
Stupid question: is that the automatic console trim cover?  No interference problems with it and a manual tranny?
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Dogcharmer on February 06, 2006, 01:50:42 PM
Nice job on the swap. I'd try and do something about that big crack in the firewall though.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on February 06, 2006, 03:27:20 PM
Pro-Five-oh :  Yes its off an auto, It doesn't hit anywhere.
 
Dogcharmer :  There isn't a crack on the firewall, probably one of the shadows making it look that way.
 
Mex Cougar and others :  The car drives 100% better.  I don't find myself having to downshift to climb hills anymore.  The car just feals more powerfull.  Only problem is having the auto computer, I described the problem in another thread with more detail.  I've actually not shortend my driveshaft yet, and I'm starting to think I don't have too.  What I previously though was a noise coming from my U-joints is actually an effect of my bad motor mounts.  the shifter base is actually moving over and rubbing the transmission tunnel.  New motor mounts will fix this.  I don't have a tach in my car yet, I'm working on that.  I drive by the sound of the engine right now.  Gas milage is a bit better too.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: pro-five-oh on February 13, 2006, 11:55:20 AM
Quote from: CougarSE
Pro-Five-oh :  Yes its off an auto, It doesn't hit anywhere.


Excellent.  Good to know the trim plates are interchangable.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: 84_T-Bird on March 30, 2006, 11:49:17 AM
Hey sup New to this site... Got a question for anybody who wants to reply... Question is I have an 84 thunder bird and I wanted to know what would be the best engine to put in it and what tricks I could do to make it go faster?  and If possible could I run nitrious through that?
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Jeremy Belcher on March 30, 2006, 01:40:02 PM
Quote from: 84_T-Bird
Hey sup New to this site... Got a question for anybody who wants to reply... Question is I have an 84 thunder bird and I wanted to know what would be the best engine to put in it and what tricks I could do to make it go faster?  and If possible could I run nitrious through that?

What exactly does this have to do with swapping a T5 behind a 3.8?
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on March 30, 2006, 10:39:53 PM
I cannot believe you tainted my thread.........ugh
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: 1FSTCAT on March 31, 2006, 01:13:33 PM
You should send this Step by Step to Eric at Coolcats and get him to set it up in the tech area. Very worth while information for long term use!

 --Ed
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Jeremy in Indy on October 18, 2006, 03:55:14 AM
Sorry if this comes off sounding like a twit, but can you fix the pictures?   

And do you have any additional information on interchangibility between AOD flywheel vs C5 flywheel?
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on October 18, 2006, 09:20:16 AM
Wow.  You've not posted in almost a year! 
 
Anyhoo, I don't have any pictures taken anymore.  I had uploaded them here to stay forever (or until the server change and inevitable loss.)
 
And that part that may be different between the C5 and AOD wouldn't actualy matter for you.  You just need a flywheel for a 3.8.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: sarjxxx on November 05, 2010, 04:20:37 PM
So is there any reason why one couldn't simply pull a t-5 from any 5.0 fox or 94-95 mustang and throw it in there as long as you get a flywheel + clutch meant for a 94/95 3.8 mustang?

Forgive me, transmissions are still one of my weak spots
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Beau on November 05, 2010, 09:17:35 PM
A Fox 5.0 T5 will work, provided you use an SN-95 flywheel...you can't use an SN-95 T5 though, the input shaft is too long.

Be best to find a 3.8 T5 '94 or '95 Stang, as that will get you the trans, the proper flywheel (at least for an '88 3.8) and the bolts.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: sarjxxx on November 05, 2010, 10:03:13 PM
Yeah, I would love to but their not very plentiful around here. At least not manual.

But I can come across a fox t-5 rather easily, and AutoZone has the proper clutch and flywheel (for 94-95) available. I just don't want to pay $700 for their matching transmission:(
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: mcb82gt on February 24, 2011, 09:53:22 AM
Somebody sticky this thing in the GREATEST HITS.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: sarjxxx on February 24, 2011, 06:15:53 PM
hah hah dude, look up, it already is:rollin:
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: mcb82gt on February 24, 2011, 07:54:50 PM
Dont make fun of the stupid guy..............
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: CougarSE on February 24, 2011, 10:00:53 PM
Quote from: ThunderbirdSport302;340710
A Fox 5.0 T5 will work, provided you use an SN-95 flywheel...you can't use an SN-95 T5 though, the input shaft is too long.

Be best to find a 3.8 T5 '94 or '95 Stang, as that will get you the trans, the proper flywheel (at least for an '88 3.8) and the bolts.

No way shape or form to install a fox 5.0 T5, You need the longer T5 as the only bellhousing/flywheel combo available requires it.  From what I remember.
 
Quote from: mcb82gt;353798
Somebody sticky this thing in the GREATEST HITS.

I really mis this car, coupled with the 4:10 rearend at the time it was really fun.

Talk about thread from the dead!!!
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: sarjxxx on February 25, 2011, 05:04:17 PM
Quote from: CougarSE;353881
Talk about thread from the dead!!!

I posted in here 4 months ago...;)
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Haystack on April 12, 2014, 04:05:35 AM
http://www.v6power.net/vb/showthread.php?p=540088&posted=1#post540088

3.8 guys no longer have to suffer with a slush box. apperantly there is only either weighted or not on 3.8's and you use either a mustang (weighted until 2000ish) or neutral (super coupe/2000ish+) flywheel and your set.

I was hoping to find either a 28oz or 50oz answer, that would mean you could use any t-5 -, including the regular gt ones. however, you will be able to physically bolt up any 3.8 using stock and easily obtainable parts.

that is all.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: sarjxxx on May 07, 2014, 12:32:12 PM
... I still plan to do this. Soon. It's just hard to find JY parts around here, not that many Fords down here and what is here is auto. I have to e-bay or Craigslist source everything anymore. I do have a lead on a trans though, just needs a little work on the synchro's apparently, and got a set of pedals in the works too. Suppose I can get a clutch kit and flywheel from Auto Zone...
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Haystack on May 07, 2014, 02:04:41 PM
That's what i did in the tbird. i used a f-150 flywheel and clutch and a $150 craigslist trans. guy said it had either 140 or 190k on it it shifted like nee and i was all in at only $450.

if i had an 83-88 3.8 this would be on the top of my list. really woke up my tbird and changed how it drove.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: sarjxxx on May 07, 2014, 04:00:50 PM
yes, aside from tires it is priority #1
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Jeremy Belcher on May 07, 2014, 04:48:48 PM
Quote from: Haystack;432205
http://www.v6power.net/vb/showthread.php?p=540088&posted=1#post540088

3.8 guys no longer have to suffer with a slush box. apperantly there is only either weighted or not on 3.8's and you use either a mustang (weighted until 2000ish) or neutral (super coupe/2000ish+) flywheel and your set.

I was hoping to find either a 28oz or 50oz answer, that would mean you could use any t-5 -, including the regular gt ones. however, you will be able to physically bolt up any 3.8 using stock and easily obtainable parts.

that is all.
The '83'-87 3.8s were confirmed to have a 28oz imbalance in 2006. What am I missing?
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?10346-84-3-8-T-5-swap-is-done-and-running
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Haystack on May 07, 2014, 05:02:43 PM
I missed this. thanks!
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Jeremy Belcher on May 07, 2014, 05:08:51 PM
8 years later and I still haven't put a manual behind my 3.8! :toilet:
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: sarjxxx on May 07, 2014, 07:07:59 PM
Quote from: JeremyB;433419
8 years later and I still haven't put a manual behind my 3.8! :toilet:

Well your title does say procrastinator!
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Haystack on May 07, 2014, 11:17:35 PM
I've probably bought 6 cougar/birds since this thread started... but i have done a t-5 swap.;)
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: jrad235 on May 08, 2014, 01:59:10 AM
I love my T-5 swap... At least I think I still do. We'll have to see once it's back on the road under EFI power!  :)
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: sarjxxx on May 08, 2014, 01:28:59 PM
are you still running the carb setup on your 03 motor?
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: sarjxxx on May 08, 2014, 01:29:34 PM
wow didn't you start that like two years ago?
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Jeremy Belcher on May 08, 2014, 03:08:14 PM
Quote from: sarjxxx;433421
Well your title does say procrastinator!
Yes, the Split Port that has been in my garage since 2009 isn't happy with me!
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: sarjxxx on May 08, 2014, 03:10:30 PM
wow! so since you are not going to use it, can I have it lol
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Jeremy Belcher on May 08, 2014, 03:23:29 PM
I'm gonna use it... eventually.

I just need to finish the CFI 3.8L upper end rebuild, throw in a T-56, blow up the CFI, then swap in the SP. :mullet:
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: sarjxxx on May 08, 2014, 04:36:49 PM
lol that sounds like quite a plan, good luck hahaha
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: jrad235 on May 08, 2014, 10:26:32 PM
Quote from: sarjxxx;433447
wow didn't you start that like two years ago?

Well...I might have picked up some parts for it about two years ago or so, but the distributor has some stupid thing wrong with it so that it won't pass DEQ and it would cost me almost as much to replace it as it is to just put the injection on it.

  So I have finally torn the top off and right now I'm working through a sensor signal issue before it will run.
Title: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: sarjxxx on May 09, 2014, 10:23:43 AM
wow... glad I don't have emissions down here...., only good thing about having a vehicle in Florida, they certainly know how to get you every other way though
Title: Re: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: gumby on May 21, 2019, 02:55:53 PM
8 years later and I still haven't put a manual behind my 3.8! :toilet:
Five more years gone, and mine is done before yours!  :laughing:

https://media.giphy.com/media/pQmWjYrz39YAg/giphy.gif
Title: Re: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: fordman3 on May 21, 2019, 05:06:23 PM
If this was addressed and I missed it, I apologize.  The one reference I never saw was to the C5 trans, which is what my '86 GS 3.8 has.  It seems like everybody else who's done this swap had the AOD.  What is the proper imbalance for my application?  And how does the length of the C5 compare to an SN95 T5?  I hope I'm not the only one who's starting with the C5.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Jeremy Belcher on May 21, 2019, 10:29:53 PM
C5/AOD is irrelevant.

Imbalance is with the engine flywheel, not the transmission torque converter.

C5 is shorter than the AOD. You'll need a shorter D/S.

You may have to cut the tack welds on your crossmember to move the mount back.
Title: Re: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: fordman3 on May 22, 2019, 12:38:01 PM
Thanks Jeremy.  I just wanted to confirm that the imbalance of the 3.8 didn't change when coupled to different transmissions.  And you are also saying that the T5 is longer than my C5, so I'll need a shorter driveshaft?  Is there a driveshaft that's a direct fit, or will I have to have mine cut down?  It seems like an XR7 driveshaft from a 5sp would work, but I doubt I'll have any luck finding one of those.  Thanks again.
Title: Re: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: gumby on May 22, 2019, 05:40:42 PM
Gonna put this in here so it is not lost in my build thread.
87 CFI 3.8
  • sn95 v6 T5 and bellhousing
  • '83 F100 3.8 flywheel(same part number as 5.8L) 164T, 28oz
  • '83 F100 10" clutch
  • '96 F150 5.8L manual trans starter
  • Fox pedals
  • Clutch cable
All my research, mostly here on FTBCF, says this should be the correct combination of parts to complete the mission. We are going to find out together!
These parts all went together quite well, and everything functions as it should. I did have to shorten my driveshaft, but I also lowered the car at the same time, likely compounding any issues. YMMV

Reference links outside this thread, or dead links retraced:
https://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/index.php?topic=35400.0
http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?37028-T-5-swap-behind-3-8-V-6-is-done

I re-used my AOD blockplate. I would recommend against this unless you make a couple small modifications before installation. The starter hole needs to be opened up a bit for the later starter, and I had some light interference between the blockplate and the flywheel when warm. This could be due to a tweaked blockplate, or a difference between the auto and manual parts. Just use the sn95 blockplate and don't look back.

I used a fox length clutch cable. This required changing to a multi-hook quadrant and firewall adjuster. While I think having the firewall adjuster is a good idea in the long run, I still think the sn95 cable would be a better fit with the sn95 bellhousing.

With these two adjustments to my original list(sn95 blockplate and clutch cable), I believe this swap would have bolted together like OEM.
Title: Re: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: fordman3 on May 22, 2019, 05:58:17 PM
Gumby,
Thanks for the info.  Assuming I can purchase the parts on CL that I found (the seller only provided an e-mail option for contact, and so far he hasn't acknowledged my message), it includes the SN95 T5 block plate.  He did not mention including the cable, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.  I found the '83 F100 clutch/pressure plate set on Autozone for like $120.  Haven't searched for the flywheel yet.  So the SN95 starter won't work for this application?  How many of your parts were picked from salvage and how many did you buy new?  I can see the total creeping on up if I have to buy many parts new at Autozone.  As always, thanks again for your assistance.
Title: Re: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: gumby on May 22, 2019, 06:19:04 PM
Pedals, trans, and cable all acquired used.
Flywheel, clutch set, and starter came from RockAuto

sn95 starter is a no-go
Title: Re: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: fordman3 on May 30, 2019, 05:59:58 PM
Gumby,
Found a pedal set from a '93 Mustang 2.3 for $40.  Does that price sound fair (I have to pull them myself)?  Gotta drive about 1.5 hrs to get them.  And, while I'm there, is there anything else off that car that's worthwhile to check on?  He's still got the cable, but I told him I won't be needing that (assuming I can find an SN95 cable).  I think he's got the bulk of the car still available.  Would his trans crossmember help me?  Or his driveshaft?  If I'm driving that far, I want to make the most of it.  Thanks again.
Title: Re: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: gumby on June 01, 2019, 09:34:48 PM
Gumby,
Found a pedal set from a '93 Mustang 2.3 for $40.  Does that price sound fair (I have to pull them myself)?  Gotta drive about 1.5 hrs to get them.  And, while I'm there, is there anything else off that car that's worthwhile to check on?  He's still got the cable, but I told him I won't be needing that (assuming I can find an SN95 cable).  I think he's got the bulk of the car still available.  Would his trans crossmember help me?  Or his driveshaft?  If I'm driving that far, I want to make the most of it.  Thanks again.
Just the pedals, $40 is fair.
Gumby,
You probably mentioned this and I may have missed it, but were you able to get the right combo of speedo gears to have a functional speedometer? 
...
would swapping to the 3.8 Mustang's headers alleviate ... any of the interferences you all talked about.  Thanks again as always.
My speedo is dead on. You will likely need to change the drive gear located inside the trans tail housing in order to get into a reasonable working ratio for the available driven gears.
I doubt the later model tubular headers would change anything related to exhaust clearance around the clutch arm, but I have no first hand experience in that regard.
Title: Re: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: Chuck W on June 02, 2019, 04:12:51 AM
While he's removing the tailshaft to replace the drive gear, he should probably go ahead and replace that tailshaft bushing while he's in there, right @gumby ;)
Title: Re: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: fordman3 on June 03, 2019, 01:09:26 PM
Gumby,
Do you happen to remember the tooth-counts (colors) of both gears you used?  Maybe a better question is, what is the drive/driven gear ratio?  That'll let me know if either of the gears I already have can be re-used.  Thanks.

Chuck,
I've noted that suggestion.  Thanks as well.
Title: Re: Sn-95 T-5 swap behind 3.8 Cougar/Bird How To.
Post by: gumby on June 03, 2019, 05:37:54 PM
https://lmr.com/products/Mustang-Speedometer-Gear-Calculator