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Technical => Drivetrain Tech => Topic started by: 86caprirs on July 11, 2018, 07:57:04 PM

Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: 86caprirs on July 11, 2018, 07:57:04 PM
88 sport with a turbo coupe 8.8" in it now. Want to go to 5 lug swap. SN95 axles are the same length as turbo coupe but the Lincoln Mark 7 axles are 3/4" longer then the turbo coupe axles (i know I will have to swap calipers and hardware). I am looking from a stock Mustang 5 lug wheel option (2007-2009 GT500 wheels) at this point for best fit into the rear wheel wells. I see some people have to use wheel spacers with the Mustang SN95 rear axle swap to make the wheels sit properly.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: bootleggers deluxe on July 11, 2018, 11:10:29 PM
I'm curently mid-swap into putting an SN95 8.8 under my 87 T, to run 09 "bullit" wheels.  i'll let you knowwhat i find out
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Aerocoupe on July 14, 2018, 09:38:24 PM
So any SN95 rear axles (8.8 & 7.5 as they are the same damn axles) will work with the SN95 swap.  If you already have the TC housing then just go to a salvage yard and tell them you want from the axles out on a 94-98 SN95 V6 Mustang (dust shields and all) and they will sell it to you unlike the axles out of an 8.8 housing.  Same width and the brake parts for an SN95 Mustang are a bit more readily available and have a lot more aftermarket support than the Lincoln.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: 86caprirs on August 07, 2018, 09:48:33 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;466414
So any SN95 rear axles (8.8 & 7.5 as they are the same damn axles) will work with the SN95 swap.  If you already have the TC housing then just go to a salvage yard and tell them you want from the axles out on a 94-98 SN95 V6 Mustang (dust shields and all) and they will sell it to you unlike the axles out of an 8.8 housing.  Same width and the brake parts for an SN95 Mustang are a bit more readily available and have a lot more aftermarket support than the Lincoln.

What do you mean aftermarket support? Are you saying that I get more options of rear brakes with a SN95 then a Lincoln? Right now the axles I have are 31 spline so I will have to buy either 31 spline SN95 axles or replace the spiders to 28 spline. I am looking to the Lincoln Mark VII parts so I can put the wheels on without needing 1" spacers on the rear. With the SN95 being the same axle length as the TC it will just be a 5 lug swap but not the length I am looking for.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Aerocoupe on August 07, 2018, 11:09:16 PM
That’s what I am saying.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Haystack on August 08, 2018, 01:51:33 PM
Well, he wants the axles to be longer then stock. Stock length is 94-98 mustang. Longer length is 99-04...
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Chuck W on August 08, 2018, 02:42:57 PM
I want to say that the later Mk7 rear brake stuff (91-93?) is the same as the TC brakes. Different rotors/calipers, etc.

The difference in width between the 94-98 SN95 width and the early Mk7 is closer to 1/2" per side.

99-04 Mustang axles are longer, but the housing is also much wider.

Seeing as you have to find or order axles, why not have some made with the longer length you want and fab up an adapter bracket to move the brake caliper attachment outboard a bit and use the more up-to-date SN95 rear brakes, or reuse your TC stuff?
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Aerocoupe on August 08, 2018, 08:17:41 PM
With regards to the OP wanting longer axles, go SN95 and get wheels with the correct offset and problem solved. No need to complicate things and have a mix and match parts nightmare for a rear end.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Chuck W on August 09, 2018, 07:59:22 AM
There's probably multiple ways to do it.

He's already got 31-spline axles, as he's done some work in the diff, so he's doing to need to get new axles anyway to go to 5-lug. That, or he remods his diff to accept other 28-spline axles.


To me, coming up with a spacer to correct the rear brake mounting is a minor thing. Especially if it avoids having to use the antiquated Lincoln/SVO rear brakes.

I don't know what the wheel offset of the wheels he wants to use but *maybe* using a 99-04 rear axle assembly would put things in the proper spot. The stickied post regarding axles/housing dimensions has the measurement info for those assemblies.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Aerocoupe on August 09, 2018, 12:53:56 PM
Good read, not sure it answers the question but some good info.

https://forums.corral.net/forums/general-mustang-tech/1089223-mark-vii-cobra-brakes.html

I can vouch for Chris Neighbors. This guy is a millwright and one hell of a machinist/fabricator. He rebuilt my T-5 back in 2007ish when I lived in SE Texas and I have abused the hell out of that trans.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: 86caprirs on August 09, 2018, 09:31:19 PM
The wheels I have are 17" 98 GT rims front and rear. I just did not want to use spacers but going through the all the work to do a Lincoln diff and only use stock Lincoln parts may be a going backwards thing even though the rears rotors are vented 10.5". I have SN95 front 95 spindle/hub and 99 calipers and rear axles/calipers/rotors from a 99 also. Maybe I just need to upgrade to 31 spline SN95 axles and use a 1" spacer?
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: 86caprirs on August 09, 2018, 09:33:59 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;466696
Good read, not sure it answers the question but some good info.

https://forums.corral.net/forums/general-mustang-tech/1089223

I can vouch for Chris Neighbors. This guy is a millwright and one hell of a machinist/fabricator. He rebuilt my T-5 back in 2007ish when I lived in SE Texas and I have abused the hell out of that trans.

Link no good. Says page not found
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Chuck W on August 09, 2018, 11:25:56 PM
Quote from: 86caprirs;466706
The wheels I have are 17" 98 GT rims front and rear. I just did not want to use spacers but going through the all the work to do a Lincoln diff and only use stock Lincoln parts may be a going backwards thing even though the rears rotors are vented 10.5". I have SN95 front 95 spindle/hub and 99 calipers and rear axles/calipers/rotors from a 99 also. Maybe I just need to upgrade to 31 spline SN95 axles and use a 1" spacer?

I've got 17" x 8" 95 Cobra wheels(Same dimensions as your GT wheels) on my '83 with 245/45F - 255/45R tires. 94-98 axles, etc.  1" more track per side would probably require me to roll/trim sheetmetal.

(https://turbochuckcom.ipage.com/webimages/projects/83%20TBird/10_17_09_4.jpg)
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Aerocoupe on August 09, 2018, 11:37:47 PM
Link fixed.

You can run these spacers with no issues:

https://www.maximummotorsports.com/Wheel-Spacer-bolt-on-5-lug-pair-choose-thickness-25-45-mm-P872.aspx

All I can say is that the Mark VII rear brakes are specific and there is not much aftermarket support.  The 94-04 Mustang rear brakes have a ton of aftermarket support.  I am pretty sure that the brake bias is not good with the SN95 fronts and the larger Mark rear calipers.  SN95 setup is 66mm front with a 38mm rear.  Mark VII is a 73mm up front and a 45mm in the rear.  If you run a 66mm up front and a 45mm out back your brake bias is gonna be really bad even with a manual proportioning valve.  Been there done this and all I can say is try to stick with how the factory set the brakes up and do not mix and match if you do not understand how brake bias and ratios work.  You have to start factoring in the MC bore size as well and want to end up with around a 3.2:1 ratio or so. A smaller ratio means a shorter, firmer pedal. A bigger ratio means a longer, lighter pedal.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Tbird232ci on August 11, 2018, 04:34:11 PM
Personally, I would run the SN95 width axles with spacers. You can find people selling aftermarket axles fairly easily. If you decide that you want a change of pace with wheels, you can remove the spacers, and get an SN95 wheel that will fill out the wheel wells very easily. If you run longer axles, it will limit wheel options.

With that said, years ago, I used the 91-92 Mark VII axles, brackets and rotors. The calipers, abutment brackets and lines are the same as the TC. It was a nice fit with the wheels I had, but if I wanted anything wider than a stock wheel, I would have been pushed out of the wheel well.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4387/37283020105_ccd63151de_o.jpg)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4332/37283051945_e3196f8dbe_o.jpg)
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: 86caprirs on September 02, 2018, 06:30:43 PM
So then I should look into SN95 5 lug axles and rotors that will work with the turbo coupe housing? I might have to do custom axles because it is a 31 spline carrier. Then swap the fronts to the 94-95 SN95 spindles with the twin piston calipers from a later SN95?
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Tbird232ci on September 04, 2018, 02:39:51 AM
I thought it was pretty well covered already in the thread so far, but anyways.

The 8.8 housing in the TC and the 94-98 SN95 is the same. The axle length is also the same. To go with SN95 axles, you have a few options. One option is to convert completely to SN95 brakes, using the mounting brackets on the ends of the axle housing, the caliper brackets, calipers and rotors which would be my choice. Another option is to use SN95 axles, and have your rotors drilled to the lug pattern.

For the 31 spline, you will have to get a set of aftermarket SN95 axles. You may luck out and find some on forums cheaply. I think Rock Auto actually had a few inexpensive options also.

Certainly grab the 94-95 SN95 spindles. The 99-04 front calipers require a small amount of grinding, but it all goes together fairly easily.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: 86caprirs on September 15, 2018, 10:10:50 PM
Well I have 95 front spindles and 99+ calipers. I just need to remember what year Mustang I got all the rear brakes and axles from. I know I bought a complete axle and got the parts from it. I may also look for a 8.8" carrier with 28 spline spiders.

So my park brakes should work with the sn95 stuff then?
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: 86caprirs on September 15, 2018, 10:45:37 PM
http://www.sn95source.com/topic/892-everything-you-need-to-know-sra-irs-75-or-88/

I found this and it was helpful. So even if I got the rear calipers from a 99-04 Stang, I will just need the 94-98 rear Caliper bracket.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Tbird232ci on September 17, 2018, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: 86caprirs;467078
Well I have 95 front spindles and 99+ calipers. I just need to remember what year Mustang I got all the rear brakes and axles from. I know I bought a complete axle and got the parts from it. I may also look for a 8.8" carrier with 28 spline spiders.

So my park brakes should work with the sn95 stuff then?


The rear brakes are all the same from 94-04, as long as they are from a stick axle. The important thing to know is the year of the axles. I checked my 95 axles for a part number, but I couldn't tell if there was a number on them or not. They have a bunch of dirt caked on.

As far as your park brake goes, I don't have much information. I've done all of my 5-lug work on Turbo Coupes, which already have disk brakes. I'm pretty sure CoolCats.net would have some helpful information, or a search on the forum.

Quote from: 86caprirs;467079
http://www.sn95source.com/topic/892-everything-you-need-to-know-sra-irs-75-or-88/

I found this and it was helpful. So even if I got the rear calipers from a 99-04 Stang, I will just need the 94-98 rear Caliper bracket.


The information in this is very hard to decipher. LMR has a rear axle guide that is a bit more useful, and should help you identify your axles.

https://lmr.com/products/mustang-axle-guide

Also, the caliper brackets are the same between 94-04.

These brackets came off of a 2001 GT:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1869/44746509531_5410ff230f_b.jpg)

And this shows the 94 part number:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1883/44697454922_27760a046e_b.jpg)

So as long as you have the 94-98 axles, you can use whatever years SN95 brakes you have.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Aerocoupe on September 18, 2018, 01:57:22 PM
86Caprirs,
Does your Bird currently have a TC rear in it and do the TC parking brakes work? Once you answer this I can guide you through what you need to do.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: 86caprirs on September 20, 2018, 10:03:15 AM
Parking brakes work and I have a TC rear end in the car. I was hoping to just swap 5 lug axles and buy 5 lug turbocoupe rotors that are modified to work with the axles. I remember seeing a company that did that but forget who it was.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: 86caprirs on September 20, 2018, 10:06:27 AM
Quote from: Tbird232ci;467119
The rear brakes are all the same from 94-04, as long as they are from a stick axle. The important thing to know is the year of the axles. I checked my 95 axles for a part number, but I couldn't tell if there was a number on them or not. They have a bunch of dirt caked on.

As far as your park brake goes, I don't have much information. I've done all of my 5-lug work on Turbo Coupes, which already have disk brakes. I'm pretty sure CoolCats.net would have some helpful information, or a search on the forum.



The information in this is very hard to decipher. LMR has a rear axle guide that is a bit more useful, and should help you identify your axles.

https://lmr.com/products/mustang-axle-guide

Also, the caliper brackets are the same between 94-04.

These brackets came off of a 2001 GT:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1869/44746509531_5410ff230f_b.jpg)

And this shows the 94 part number:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1883/44697454922_27760a046e_b.jpg)

So as long as you have the 94-98 axles, you can use whatever years SN95 brakes you have.



I guess you are right because in 99-04 the rear end housing was a tat wider then 94-98 and the 99-04 axles were also lengthened to match the 99-04 housing.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: BCA on September 20, 2018, 11:00:07 AM
Quote from: 86caprirs;467192
Parking brakes work and I have a TC rear end in the car. I was hoping to just swap 5 lug axles and buy 5 lug turbocoupe rotors that are modified to work with the axles. I remember seeing a company that did that but forget who it was.

If you want to retain the TC rear brake components, you can use rear rotors from a 1991-1992 Mark VII.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Tbird232ci on September 20, 2018, 11:39:40 AM
Quote from: 86caprirs;467192
Parking brakes work and I have a TC rear end in the car. I was hoping to just swap 5 lug axles and buy 5 lug turbocoupe rotors that are modified to work with the axles. I remember seeing a company that did that but forget who it was.


If you used the TC style parking brake cable, they will work with the SN95 calipers.

You could use 94-98 SN95 axles, and have your TC rotors drilled to match the 5-lug pattern.

I would personally use the SN95 brakes as they're easier to obtain from part stores, junk yards, etc. I hate the idea of wanting to take a somewhat long trip, have a caliper lock up, and have no parts available. It's a little more expensive up front, but it will make life easier later on.

Quote from: BCA;467194
If you want to retain the TC rear brake components, you can use rear rotors from a 1991-1992 Mark VII.


You have to use the 91-92 Mark VII axles, rotors, and the brackets that mount to the ends of the axles. That's what I did before.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: BCA on September 20, 2018, 11:53:23 AM
Quote from: Tbird232ci;467198
You have to use the 91-92 Mark VII axles, rotors, and the brackets that mount to the ends of the axles. That's what I did before.


OK, didn't know that. I started down that route, but then switched to the SN95 route before I got that far.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Aerocoupe on September 20, 2018, 03:06:54 PM
Rear brake evolution on my ‘83 5.0 car:
- Swapped in an 8.8 from an ‘88 Mustang GT
- Upgraded the rear brakes to dics via SSBC kit - utilized TC rear e-brake cables
- Switched to Ranger axles and redrilled the rear rotors for a five lug swap
- Upgraded the whole car to SN95 Cobra brakes - I used stock Fox length axles and brackets from North Race Cars to keep the stock Fox Mustang axle widths as I already had rims that worked with this axle width under the car. Again the stock TC e-brake cables worked great.  At this time I also switched to the SN95 rear calipers. This was to balance the brakes on the car. The TC rear calipers have a larger diameter piston and with the stock SN95 single piston or twin piston calipers it was a mismatch. Talked with Jack Hidley at Maximum Motorsports about this and he is the one who explained the math to me.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: 86caprirs on September 23, 2018, 02:34:15 PM
Thanks for your help guys. Here is what I have in my parts collection.

94 SN spindles
94 front rotor
99 PBR dual piston front calipr (yes I know some grinding needs to be done)
99 rear calipers, all brackets and rotors
94 rear axles

I just need to figure out how to adapt the front brake hoses to the Thunderbird hard lines and rear caliper flex hoses to the turbo coupe hard lines.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Tbird232ci on September 23, 2018, 05:36:53 PM
Quote from: 86caprirs;467238
Thanks for your help guys. Here is what I have in my parts collection.

94 SN spindles
94 front rotor
99 PBR dual piston front calipr (yes I know some grinding needs to be done)
99 rear calipers, all brackets and rotors
94 rear axles

I just need to figure out how to adapt the front brake hoses to the Thunderbird hard lines and rear caliper flex hoses to the turbo coupe hard lines.

The rear TC lines *should* work with your SN95 calipers. I was doing a search, and stumbled across a member who did the swap and retained the TC lines.

I haven't figured out the front lines yet, as I think the TC and Sport use different hard line fittings in the front. You may actually have luck trying to see if your current lines will work with the SN95 calipers.

*edit to add more info*

Based on some photos and research I've done, the rear soft lines from a 94-95 SN95 should work. I haven't had them in my hands to actually confirm. I'm on the fence between ordering some inexpensive lines to try, or just taking the leap of faith and ordering stainless lines.

Up front, the TC has two different sized brake line fittings. One size is 3/8 and the other is 7/16. I'm fairly sure that the Sport has 3/8 on both sides. There are adapters that will allow you to adapt the one line that is different. I haven't done much more research on the matter since I've been primarily messing with TC's over the years.

https://www.maximummotorsports.com/MM-Brake-fitting-adapter-1994-04-Mustang-brakes-on-FOX-P730.aspx

I'm fairly sure that is the adapter fitting you would need, if my information is correct.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Beau on September 23, 2018, 07:26:20 PM
You can get that adaptor at any parts store. I picked mine up from Oreilly. It's been on three different cars now...even works with the '99-04 hoses that are required with the dual piston calipers. (which stop the car fucking awesome, compared even to the SN95 single piston jobs..)
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Aerocoupe on September 23, 2018, 09:52:00 PM
Did not need adapters on my Bird. Being my car had the small front brakes (10”) I had the 3/8” fitting on the hard lines so these lines worked:

https://www.maximummotorsports.com/MM-Stainless-Brake-Hoses-1979-1981-non-V8-Mustang-SN95-calipers-front-P1576.aspx

If your car started out with the larger brakes up front (11”) and both hard lines have 7/16” fittings then these are what you want:

https://www.maximummotorsports.com/MM-Stainless-Brake-Hose-Kit-1979-93-Mustang-with-SN95-calipers-front-P1341.aspx

So if your car has one 3/8 and one 7/16 fitting the you will need an adapter. Other nice thing about these kits is they come with fine and coarse thread banjo bolts. This is good because some of the Cobra calipers are fine thread and some are coarse so if you want to upgrade later you will have the correct bolts either way.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: 86caprirs on September 28, 2018, 03:57:30 PM
Man i do not remember if it had 10" or 11" rotors on the front. I did swap to turbocoupe rotors and calipers a long time ago and everything bolted in.
Title: 8.8" swap SN95 vs Lincoln Mark 7
Post by: Tbird232ci on September 28, 2018, 04:45:26 PM
The Turbo Coupe rotors require the TC/Mustang GT spindles to swap over. All of the non-TC cars got the cute little 10" brakes.