'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Topic: '88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap. (Read 19597 times) previous topic - next topic

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #15 – March 22, 2015, 07:37:32 PM

Uh......$10k for a Kaase Boss 9 ?!? When my Boss and I checked into a Boss9 from them for his Boss9 clone ...... it was just over $25k. Granted that was for a complete carb to pan engine. If it was only 10k one of those would be waiting on the run stand.

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #16 – March 22, 2015, 07:49:22 PM

A Boss Nine can be built for around 8K..IF you can assemble your own engine and know where to find your parts. The most expensive components are of course the heads. Kaase does sell complete ready to go cylinder heads for around $4,500 new. Used versions can be had for a lot less. Blocks, cranks, rods, etc are your garden variety 429-460 stuff. For the 25K you mentioned you can go with the Carter alloy block/Kaase Boss Nine heads for a newer version (and better) than the vintage SK 494 Boss 429 Can-Am engine.

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #17 – March 23, 2015, 03:38:08 PM

Quote from: jlaidler;446429

I like the DOHC because it gets pretty good power, and I'm a real nerd for DOHC efficiency. Plus naturally aspirated, that engine in that size car would likely get good mileage. I'm hoping better than what the V6 gets at around 25 MPG. Also I'm kind of afraid of the costs and complications with doing ports etc with the 5.0 Windsor, especially if it'll kill my MPGs. If I had the money and resources I'd put in the Duratec 3.7 V6 with the Mustang 6-speed tranny. 305 HP and 31 MPG rather impresses me. Anyway I'd like to at least look at a couple comprehensive write ups for swapping the Mark VIII motor, just to see what I'd need to do as far as the suspension and fuel system and mounting brackets etc. Google just hasn't been so kind. Found a video from a guy who did the swap in his '97, but no details or schematics etc. Even if I eventually decide to abandon the project and just fix the current engine and rebuild the transmission, I really want to at least get the info. I was thinking stick in the axles from a Turbo Coupe and interior from a 5.0 with a floor shifter. Otherwise sticking in a 5.0, especially going simple with stock would give me nearly identical power to the V6 but leaden the handling with the extra weight and probably lose some MPGs.

I like the efficiency of DOCH (or modern OHV engines [aka GM]), but by the time you swap in a cheap mod motor, you'll never make your money back in gas savings. The other draw of the Coyote or 3.7 V6 is the drivability aspect. You're simply not going to get a 5.0/5.8 making the power of a Coyote while having the same drivability. Variable Valve Timing is a magical thing! :D

It's amazing how far OEM engine lines have progressed quality and technology-wise. A run of the mill engine is essentially blue-printed and machined to tolerances exceeding most speed shops.

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #18 – March 24, 2015, 02:21:31 PM

Just some issues to keep in mind concerning a Coyote or 4.6 swap: lack of bottom end torque. I have several friends with 5.0 Coyotes and 4.6s and the bottom end torque is not exactly like a 5.0/5.8 Windsor wedge engine. Generally speaking, DOHC/SOHC engines are like vintage Boss 302s. You gotta wait for the rpms for power. For street driving you want torque…my worthless two cents...

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #19 – March 24, 2015, 02:42:18 PM

A stock 5.0 Coyote will spank the out of a stock 5.0 HO/302. "Lack of low end torque" or not. Just rev it and don't be a wussy. I don't get this "it has no low end torque" thing. Does everyone never rev their engine above 3000rpm or only drive with 1/4 throttle around town? Cars got a red line on the tachometer for a reason

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #20 – March 24, 2015, 04:19:35 PM

You are correct, a "stock" Coyote will beat a "stock" 5.0. That was not my concern, the lack of low end was. Personally, I am very familiar with high RPM engines, as I used to own and race a 1970 T/A Boss 302 Mustang, so I get your point. Now please understand mine. MOST drivers on the street won't wait for the RPMs to come on for acceleration. Its torque that matters more for the average driver. Just my worthless two cents...

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #21 – March 24, 2015, 04:42:35 PM

Crossboss has a very valid point - hell, if it weren't for low end torque a stock Birdcat would be pretty much undrivable instead of just plain annoying...

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #22 – March 24, 2015, 05:54:22 PM

True but go out and drive a 5.0 Coyote powered Mustang. You'll find it is not lacking in low end torque. DOHC and variable valve timing make power from idle to redline. A blown 4.6 4V will walk pretty much any blown 302, unless you have an aftermarket block. At that point we're not talking stock anymore.

If the OP wants to swap a stock 4.6 4V out of a Mark VIII into his car I wouldn't do it. He'd be much better off swapping a built 5.0 in. Again the only "worth it" mod motor swap is a 5.0 Coyote. Pricey but a 435hp Coyote is going to be a lot more civilized/driveable than a 435hp 5.0 Windsor.

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #23 – March 24, 2015, 06:42:29 PM

Putting a DOHC 4.6 or Coyote 5.0 in a fox body car is not something for someone of a faint heart and light wallet. It can be done on a "budget". Ford makes a kit to control the Coyote motor in a vintage car application but it is around $1,500 and the tune sucks so add another $500 for a custom dyno tune. So right now if you find a Coyote motor in a salvage yard you could probably negotiate getting the engine and trans for let's say $7,500. You are just south of $10,000 and have not begun to install it. Even if you got the wiring harnesses and stock PCM with it you would have to deal with figuring out the wiring and the ABS and traction control is all part of that PCM so some custom tuning would be necessary.

I'm pretty sure a 5.0 Windsor motor with mass air (after all it's California) that will meet emissions with a trans of your choice (T-5 or a 4R70W), wiring harnesses, and mass air conversion could be done for about $5,000. This would include chip and tune. I'm thinking about 225 rwhp on stock parts with the HO conversion. If you really watch your $$$ and shop the for sale sections here and on the Mustang sites you could easily get past the 300 rwhp mark for under $7,500.

Granted it's not the Coyote or DOHC mod motor hp levels but it's definitely less of an undertaking. Don't get me wrong a Coyote motor under the hood of one of these cars would look awesome but at the price it would take to do it right would not be for the faint of heart when it comes to spending money even if you can turn all the wrenches yourself and wire it yourself.

When my Coupe had the 306 in it and it had 318 rwhp / 332 ft-lbs of torques I could consistancy beat stock 5.0 Coyote Mustangs. I'd get one or two lengths on them a shift. So weight plays a factor in it between those two cars but build a T-Bird or Cougar wisely and you can put it on a stock Coyote powered Mustang all day long.

Darren

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #24 – March 24, 2015, 07:11:19 PM

Quote from: crossboss;446483

Just some issues to keep in mind concerning a Coyote or 4.6 swap: lack of bottom end torque. I have several friends with 5.0 Coyotes and 4.6s and the bottom end torque is not exactly like a 5.0/5.8 Windsor wedge engine. Generally speaking, DOHC/SOHC engines are like vintage Boss 302s. You gotta wait for the rpms for power. For street driving you want torque…my worthless two cents...

I could see that with the 5.8, but not a stock 5.0. A stock Coyote produces more torque than a stock 5.0 at every rpm from idle on up. I'd imagine a 400 hp 5.0 doesn't beat out a Coyote at low rpms either, but haven't found any dyno plots that go below 2500rpm. DOHC engines with VVT gives you superior volumetric efficiency compared to non-optimized (Windsor) OHV engines. That's the whole point of VVT, it gives you the ability to have a torque cam at lower rpm and a power cam at higher rpm. Windsor motors don't compare favorably with modern DOCH motors of the same displacement.

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #25 – March 24, 2015, 07:43:13 PM

Quote from: thunderjet302;446491

If the OP wants to swap a stock 4.6 4V out of a Mark VIII into his car I wouldn't do it. He'd be much better off swapping a built 5.0 in. Again the only "worth it" mod motor swap is a 5.0 Coyote. Pricey but a 435hp Coyote is going to be a lot more civilized/driveable than a 435hp 5.0 Windsor.

But the Teksid block used in the Mk VIII 32V weighs around 85Lbs and is said to withstand 1000Hp, that'd handle a big ole huffer(yeah I know this ain't happnin')...

Still with a early parts Mk VIII(OBD-I) would be similar to a 2.3T to 5.0 swap, hang a 2800-3200 stall in it and 3:55 cogs, it'd surprise a few people... With a $1000 parts car and Bird in hand, I can see total DIYS cost under $2500, maybe closer to $2K...

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #26 – March 24, 2015, 08:11:23 PM

I would have to say I disagree but this would be just what I have seen price wise and the way I would build it. Salvaged 93-94 Mark VIII motor would be around $800 salvaged all day long but hopefully it still runs and the OP is willing to just bolt it up and go without going through it (would be a mistake in my book). Then you will need a transmission (auto or manual are about the same cost when you are not starting with either), stall converter, PCM, engine harness (again dealing with the wiring but doable), and figuring out the engine mounts. Exhaust would also be included as well as having to upgrade the front suspension (just springs just springs for the V8 motor). So all in without going through the motor I would say a bare minimum of $4,000 and more like $5,000 but I like my installs clean and not rigged so someone might get it for $3,500 but I would not own it.

So now you have a Mark VIII motor with less hp than a Coyote motor or a DOHC 4.6 motor and most likely getting your ass handed to you by a $4,000 to $5,000 dollar 5.0 Windsor swap car. Again, the Mark VIII motor would be really cool under the hood and with a little more $$$ will make some hp but you have more weight across the nose than the 5.0 Windsor so you have to make more hp to make up for it.

Anyhow, its an argument for the ages as everyone has their opinion but I would put my N/A 351W car (I would even remove the bottles) up against a N/A 5.0 Coyote or N/A 4.6DOHC swap car any day of the week. Now if you go get a built N/A DOHC motor and up your build cost then please allow me to spend the same money on my Windsor...again the hp wars would continue especially when the LS guys show up in this thread and want to talk a Bowtie swap.

Overall whatever the OP does to get rid of the V6 it will be well worth it. I think for simplicity sake and time a 5.0 Windsor motor would be the way to go but if the OP has the time and the ability a DOHC or 5.0 Coyote motor would be bad ass under the hood.

Darren

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #27 – March 24, 2015, 09:39:32 PM

The GM LS engine is a very good design. Now, a bit of trivia on GMs LS--the cylinder heads are almost a direct copy of a 1964 Ford 289 SK377 "Tall Port" prototype. Even the LS' bolt pattern is within 1 mm of the small block Ford, and physically WILL bolt onto the Windsor block! When we interviewed the Chevy engineers, they admitted "borrowing" the Ford design. Also, the LS block design, again was borrowed from the Ford FE and Chysler Hemi designs. Its like rock n roll, "we are all a bunch of beggars and thieves"

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #28 – March 24, 2015, 09:56:39 PM

Quote from: crossboss;446496

When we interviewed the Chevy engineers, they admitted "borrowing" the Ford design. Also, the LS block design, again was borrowed from the Ford FE and Chysler Hemi designs. Its like rock n roll, "we are all a bunch of beggars and thieves"

I'm a Ford guy, through and through, and then some.

But when Ford people say that GM stole, bought, borrowed, or were looking at the 5.0 windsor....they're full of shiznit. shiznit.

I even believed the rumor...till I looked at facts.

Yeah, the LS heads will bolt onto a 5.0/5.8....so what? Cleveland heads will too, with a bit of work.

Coincidence, nothing more.

The LS is a decent little engine, no argument, but it's only a well executed design...it's only taken GM what...50-some years to get it right? Ford had the Cleveland in the 60's and 70's....there are STILL die hard GM guys who get that glassy-eyed look, as if they've been huffing 110 high test and permatex fumes, and speak reverently of how badly a 351c Torino or some such whupped their ass on main street in 1971.

Also, share your info of these alleged chevy engineers who borrowed the design. I doubt that contractual agreements, and protocol would allow them to admit even if they had. Besides, as solid as the 5.0 has been, it's still basically a 60's design...that leads right back to the Cleveland heads. IF GM were to copy anything.....

There's also the rumor that Yates designed the LS heads...

Man, I want some of those guys have been smoking. It has got to be some good shiznit...like Charlie Daniels sings....the shiznit they smoked in 'Nam.

'88 T-Bird 4.6 DOHC swap.

Reply #29 – March 24, 2015, 10:40:31 PM

Quote from: Aerocoupe;446495

I would have to say I disagree but this would be just what I have seen price wise and the way I would build it. Salvaged 93-94 Mark VIII motor would be around $800 salvaged all day long but hopefully it still runs and the OP is willing to just bolt it up and go without going through it (would be a mistake in my book). Then you will need a transmission (auto or manual are about the same cost when you are not starting with either), stall converter, PCM, engine harness (again dealing with the wiring but doable), and figuring out the engine mounts. Exhaust would also be included as well as having to upgrade the front suspension (just springs just springs for the V8 motor). So all in without going through the motor I would say a bare minimum of $4,000 and more like $5,000 but I like my installs clean and not rigged so someone might get it for $3,500 but I would not own it.

Darren

I got's connections, have seen '97 & '98 MK-VIII at auction go for $700-1000, earlier ones less... A buddy recently bought one of each, didn't have more than $1600/$1700 in the pair, both had around 110/115K mi... He used the '97 for some seat and interior electrical parts, resold the whole car for $800 to some guy who wanted the drive train for a street rod(orig guy was going to buy engine for $600, but Bubba offered him the whole car and he jumped on it)... Not sure what he got out of the '98, probably around $2200... Tells me he's happy when he makes a grand on vehicles that go out front(he's a small dealer)...

BTW he bought my white and red TC at auction, years back... Paid $1015 for my white and that was in '97, around four years later he bought the red for $430... I gave him a $200 on top for my white, but paid his cost for the red(did him a favor, don't remember what)