Since I'm trying to hammer out the pre-cats, I guess I might as well delete the smog pump on the '86. Testing doesn't happen down here, and the smog pump seems pretty much pointless if the cats are empty. (or gone, in the case of the main)
I know I need to plug the hole in the exhaust.. but what I'm wondering about is:
1) If any of you already did it on your 3.8, how did you deal with the belt issue? Either a custom-length belt routed from the alternator right to the crank pulley, or with a pump-delete pulley setup? (if a different length belt, you wouldn't happen to remember the new length, would ya?)
2) What is the pipe running to the back of the intake manifold, and what do I need to do with it once the smog pump is gone?
I don't wish to remove the rest of the emissions stuff.. EGR or evaporative canister.. although I haven't had a complete look at the "plumbing" involved in the EGR operation, and whether or not it's tied into the smog pump plumbing. (things are pretty tight on the passenger side) I'll hammer out the cats as soon as I get the bolts loose, but the pump delete may wait a few days or weeks. I need to replace the idler/tensioner pulley at some point, and I may wait and do the smog pump delete when I go to replace the chattering pulley, and put a new belt on at the same time.
Thanks to some generous future in-laws and the renewed ability to post auctions, (our Ebay acc't was screwed up for a couple weeks.. long story) looks like I have enough money in the bank to replace the pulley and the belt whenever I want to. Just need to figure out now what stays and what goes inside the engine compartment, to remove the smog pump but keep EGR and the evaporative canister. Not getting much help thumbing thru Haynes, surprise surprise.
That pipe pumps air into the exhaust ports of the heads. Once you've deleted the smog pump, you need to plug the hole. I can't remember offhand what the size/pitch is of the plug is.
The EGR system is not tied into the Thermactor system.
So that fitting near the end of that tube/pipe setup is a check valve, then? We were trying to figure out what it was, yesterday.
ok here goes
locate the black pvc vac line
disconnect it and plug/spare back at the smog pump
locate its far end behind the coolant fill tank and only unhook the solenoid switch for it.
locate the tan pvc vac line
disconnect it and plug/spare back at the smog pump
locate its far end behind the coolant fill tank and only unhook the solenoid switch for it.
locate the green pvc vac line
locate it at the egr and plug / spare it back
unplug the elec conn as well
locate its far end behind the coolant fill tank and only unhook the solenoid switch for it.
locate the org pvc vac line.
locate it at the pre-heat valve on the driver side intake and plug/spare it back.
locate its far end behind the coolant fill tank and only unhook the solenoid switch for it.
locate the red pvc vac line
locate it at the hex shaped distribution hook up on rear center of intake and plug/spare it back. tinker around till you end up not needing this connection any longer. this will aid in removing the hoses to the lid as well as the "t" is not needed anymore.
locate this red line along the driver strut tower and there will be a red three way fitting. disonnect it somewhere along there and plug/spare it back. This red line gets its vac from the intake and triggers the solenoid bank black,tan,green,org for emissions operation.
locate the HEX shaped vac distribution hook up on rear center of intake.
again, tinker around in this area till your **RED** line is no longer feeding a vac signal to the solenoid bank behind the coolant fill tank.
locate the vac lines that go to the air cleaner lid.
again, delete these, you can appreciate this more and more in the future.
locate the one way valve on the rear of intake pointing to pass side and the associated plumbing going to diverter valve
remove the associated plumbing hooked to this one way valve on the intake and smog pump end. this will leave you with a one way valve that will be noisy when you start up. If you want, install a bolt in place of the valve. I decided to run a heater hose from this valve directly along the pass side of the car. I allow the other end of this hose to pass thru a convienient hole found in on the rear pass side of the strut tower. this is the exit spot for this one way valve to vent out into the world. I decided not to plug it off with a bolt because there is something very tricky about these 87 and down intakes that i dont quite understand yet. So for the sake of causing a possible clogging up of the pan on the underside of the intake,, i decided to leave atleast one area open for that once in a while burp the intake may need.
locate the pipe that goes to the exhaust as well as associated plumbing that goes to the smog pump.
remove the plumbing at both ends for this hose / pipe run.
crimp off the exhaust with vise grips and bend it over. Better yet,, you have a chance to do what i wished i had done *************if you listen up. ......... run a section of heater hose from the one way valve on the rear of the intake to the metal pipe that is already installed on your exhaust. You can pull this pipe out of your exhaust and eyeball it for a while till you figure out a way to rebend it so it takes the curve you need and it finally mates up to the heater hose. This will allow your intake to vent out thru your exhaust system.,, gezz i wish i had thought of this when i was doing my smog delete.
locate all the solenoids behind the coolant fill tank.
unhook all the electrical solenoids, they no longer perform any emissions fuctions so save some money on your electic bill :giggle:
Next up would be the removeal of the CFI and cleaning out the carbon buildup that fuggers up your power but thats a different subject. if you feel froggy, go for it and you will find what im talking about directly up under the cfi where carbon builds up. Tinker around with the vac line that goes from the rear of the cfi(gold fitting) which lands over at you pvc valve. unhook the vac from here all together. You will need to move directly to this next step. Locate the Main vac line that comes from your plastic distribution section (driver side firewall) an runs to the "HEX" shaped diagonally installed thing a ma jig on the rear center of the intake i previouslyspoke of.
Cut off about 2 1/2 inches of it at the intake end. Install a "T" right at the intake side. This will leave you with a third end free for use. Now hack/slice and dice around with the metal line that goes from the pvc valve. The other end is no longer hooked up to the cfi so cut the end off,,transition it to a rubber hose and hook it up to the third and final location on your newly installed "T" fitting.
************PLUG OFF THE REAR OF THE CFI (GOLD FITTING).
remove your belt
remove your smog pump
**********RE_INSTALL the long pivit bolt because it acts as a pivit for the smog but also is a support member for the bracket assy that holds your alternator. call my bluff on this if you want but i now have a broken bracket because i did not install it. This bolt should be the color blue for some odd reason. i think it passes thru the water jacket but i cant actually remember what the heck im talking about on this but anyways,,,, install it back or be sorry later.
purchase a ****77 1/2 inch belt from advance for about 35 bux.
done.
if i missed something, im sure you'll figure it out.
let us know if you **CAN*** pull codes now but **can not after you unhook all this . just curious
since i wrote all this up,, im gonna copy/past it now to my "diy" file so i dont have to type all this ever again. :grinno:
continue on and you will also want to get rid of the metal pipe for your heater core that runs along the intake. Simply undo all that . run a heater hose from the far left passanger side of your heater core and hook it up directly to the water pump left pass side fitting. run a second hose from the heater core driver side fitting and run it directly to the coolant sending unit fitting. Its that freaking simple to get rid of the metal heater pipes!!!
BEWARE OF THE FOLLOWING
now that you have done all this , some strange objects will appear on the passanger side of your car. dont call 911 or anything like that cause these mysterious objects happen to be your spark plugs you can new see without any strain.
enjoy.
, I may have to print that out.. lol.. thanks.
Something like this, I am going to have a friend on hand to help me with.. double-check my work, etc.
while you were in reply , i was in edit mode,, go check it again and there are some other things you can do which i highly suggest if you hate getting to the pass side spark plugs.
btw,, it only looks like a big job. most of the work is unplug and play :)
I saw that. A little too late for me, since I just did a tune-up.. plugs, plug wires, new cap and rotor, and a nice little bout of tendonitis in my arm lasting several weeks, from repeatedly putting so much strain on it while my elbow was fully extended. I had to wedge a brick (literally) in between those lines and the side of the car to get more room to move around.
Yeah, the metal line delete for the heater sounds like a good idea. I'll see how things go.
number 1 plug ***was*** a pain for me but not no more :giggle: :ies:
I'm going to have to cherry-pick some of the info from that, because you said delete the solenoids. According to Haynes, those are mainly EGR-related.. and like I said, I don't wish to delete the rest of the emissions stuff.. just the cats and the smog pump.
Where the output of the smog pump goes, to the cat or exhaust manifold or to atmosphere, is controlled by the Thermactor Valve. It is one of the things in the way of getting to the #1 spark plug.
The Thermactor Valve is controlled by two of the solinoid operated vacuum valves under the coolent expansion tank.
The TAD is the 3rd one back from the front of the car and the TAB is the 4th one back.
You will want to plug the vacuum lines at one end or the other if you remove the thermactor valve.
If you disconnect the electrical connection to the solinoids it will cause EEC error codes.
If you ever want to use error codes to trouble shoot problems, the fewer "normal errors" the better.
So how much else of that big post do I have to remove to avoid deleting/disabling EGR?
in my opinion and opinions of others, your a bofoon for not wanting to delete the entire emissions system. Its not a perfect system by no means and it only takes away engine hp when operating that pump. If you leave the elec part of the solenoids hooked up , that will atleast complete an otherwise open circuit for eec code dumping.
if you want to keep the egr on a 87 and down 3.8 intake , then by all means just go with your gut and ignore my previous post. I just thought id save you time since i happen to know each and every vac fittting on my car. with the smog/egr delete, 75% of the vac connections are no longer in the picture and were never needed in the first place other than to force you to bog down and already starved engine.
Was that REALLY called for, trying to call me names just because I don't want to do things EXACTLY the way you do?
oopps, sorry :brick:
forgot who i was talking to for a moment. :wtf:
oh, and i did not try,, i did call you a name,,, suck it up pilgram. We all take some abuse and your not different. :evilgrin:
OK then, I'll be carbon-copying back to you that PM you sent me a few weeks back.
actually when you think about it,, if you delete the smog pump, the egr will not longer operate normal. See,, the darn thing opens up and this path in the intake depends on the smog pump path as well. its really no good having the smog pump missing and stll having that egr building up debris on the bottom of the CFI and the intake ports. Whats the good of having this vac operated one way valve (egr) when half the map is missing? where is all this grim and goop gonna go now if you only half do it.
remember,, you still have to deal with that valve mounted on the pass side of the intake that blows out. I dont think you would wanna plug it off cause it does push stuff out all the time.
If you leave it un-eled (sp), its gonna be a very noisy device so either way you will have this problem.
they (egr / smog pump) work together, one without the other is like shoes and no laces.
just food for thought,, think bout it
A bit better. You could've just said this without calling me a "buffoon".
It does, however, contradict an earlier post by someone else.. saying that EGR and Thermactor are not tied together.
I am willing to consider deleting the EGR.. IF the removal of the smog pump system screws things up for the functioning of the EGR system. But, as stated much earlier, I would prefer to avoid removing other emissions systems if reasonably possible.
You know, "emissions" is not a dirty word to everyone. While I'm not exactly what most people would consider to be a granola-munching tree-hugging hippie liberal, (I get called things like redneck more than I get called anything of that kind.. lol) I do have some appreciation for the environment around me. Aside from the hurricanes, I realize I live in a great area with tons of natural beauty all around me.. and it isn't (yet) a crime to have some appreciation for that.. and also isn't (yet) a crime to make *reasonable* efforts to do my part to keep things that way.
BTW.. if you find the thread in the lounge about Kyoto and catalytic converters, you'll see that my first motivation for hammering out my cats (and removing the smog pump, since it becomes rather pointless without catalyst) has to do with changing *what* is emitted from the car, *not* just looking for more power. I won't complain about a little more power, though.
BTW, "shoes with no laces" wasn't the best of buttstuffogies, considering the shoes I wear every day have no laces or fasteners of any kind.. heh. Cheap slip-on shoes I bought for gardening.
Correct.
EGR is *used* exhaust gasses tapped from an intake crossover passage and allowed into the intake just after the throttle valve.
Thermactor air is *fresh* air pumped through check valves to either the cats, the exhaust manifolds, or dumped to the outside world.
Deleting the EGR?
Adjust the timing to get rid of pre-ignition, as the computer will still think it's there and will be adjusting timing and fuel mixture accordingly.
Deleting the Thermactor?
Don't be surprised if the Check Engine starts complaining about a thermactor system fault, since the ECU won't see an O2 sensor difference when it thinks it's injecting air.
Argus Duntov - GM Engineer: "Parts left out cost nothing and pose no service problems."
for the most part, ill agree with you on emissions. Im a kind of tree hugger myself and enjoy nature but thats a different conversation.
As for the emissions design in our cars, i have an opinion so someone more familiar with this clear me up if im wrong.
here is what i think is correct.....
Back when the US goverment started to require emissions standards, a design was needed quickly to retrofit already existing engine designs. Ford, Chevy , Chrysler and everyone else had to scramble to figure out all this and as a result, thats exactly why we 3.8 folks have aluminum heads / smog pump/ egr,,ect ect.
The design we have today is the yesteryear version of what is running on the road today in newer cars. In my opinion, our design is not the best and is a result of quick learning put into action. So we inherit these pieces parts only to look on at newer cars with the same if not more emissions parts but pulling more horse power and quicker times with better gas mileage as stock engines.
They were still sort of learning while our design was put together but todays engines are a totally different story. Our engines run better without this stuff.
As for todays engines,, i dont know what would happen if you took off all the emissions . I enjoy knowing our cars are flexable enough to have all this stuff removed and run as good if not better without emissions.
____________________________
back to your issue,, i forgot about another option that sounds like something that would suit you. I did this at first so i would not have to remove the pump at all or mess with any plumbing at that moment.
This might be what your looking for as an alternative.
-Loosen smog pump bolts (three 10mm bolts)
-remove old belt
-remove by hand the three bolts you loosened up on smog pump pully
-pry off by hand the plasic fan you find behind the smog pump pully
-purchase a 77 1/2'' belt
-install new belt.
-you will notice this new belt barely misseshiznitting the face of you smog pump
-start engine and you *might* hear the belts edge rub the face of the pump but this will only be for a minor moment in time.
done.
now you dont have to touch anything else anywhere other than the smog system. It still looks stock and passes the visual check for the emissions folks,,if they dont notice the belt drive system. the smog pump is kind of burried anyway so i dont think it would be noticed unless someone was looking for it.
this is by far the easiest way i know to take the smog pump out of the picture.
In the almost 21 years I've owned mt '84 3.8 T-Bird it has never come close to failing an emissions test. It was last tested in 2001. In Maryland if you are over 70 and drive less than 5000 miles per year you can apply for a waiver from testing, which I now do to save the $14.
The 2001 test:
Hydrocarbons (HC) State Standards 2.0000 GPM
Tested 0.1639 GPM
Carbon Monoxide (CO) State Standards 30.0000 GPM
Tested 1.4385 GPM
Oxides of Nitrogen (NOx) State Standards 3.0000 GPM
Tested 0.0252 GPM
It looks like something is working.
I think your talk about being in the early primitive stages of emission controls applys more to the early 70's than the early 80's.
Maybe I'll try and see how fast it will run a qtr mile to see how it compares.
your probably right while im probably mostly wrong ill admit. :dunce: You've been around the block more than i have. Thunderchicken sent me a oem write up on the egr system and how it works,, i was blow away by all the thoughts and details in the background of what we dont see.
However,, i do think i have "getting rid of that stuff" nailed down pretty well.
Btw,, you anywhere near clinton md?
About 45 miles from Clinton. I'm in Lusby which is on the western s of the bay near Solomons Island.
OK, after working on the '88 yesterday and developing a loathing for its smog pump setup, I'm almost ready to go forward with the delete on the '86. One discrepancy, though. I decided to use some twine to double-check belt length, just going over the front of the smog pump pulley instead of around it. I got a length of about 80 inches. (80 1/2" if I pulled really hard on the twine when measuring it)
You list a belt of 77 1/2".. I got 80" from my measurement.. and checking Summit's site for their selection of belts, I see the nearest size Goodyear belts are 73 1/2" and 79". Checking PartsAmerica.com for Advance's belts, I see a 77 1/2" belt for cars w/o A/C. Are all these belt sizes (except maybe the 73 1/2", which would seem to be way too small) workable with idler pulley adjustment? I should also be replacing the idler pulley when I do this, because the noise is getting worse. (as far as I know, the noise is coming from there.. guess I'll be screwed if it isn't)
BTW, my measurement technique was to run the twine next to the belt, not over it. Don't know if that makes any difference, but when possible I ran the twine right on the pulleys.