Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Body/Appearance/Interior => Topic started by: Masejoer on April 30, 2012, 01:32:57 AM

Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Masejoer on April 30, 2012, 01:32:57 AM
So last winter I rolled the window down and there was enough ice to make the motor rip the jb-welded clips off of the drivers side window. Getting back to fixing this, I went into looking at WHY the windows come off. I removed the window and cleaned everything off today.

Halfway down, the window needs to move downward closer to the outer shell of the door. The problem is the window track is closer to the center of the door, which pulls it in further than the window guides allow. I cleaned and glued the rear door guide to prevent the rubber from sliding down again, since this seems to be the main cause of motor hesitation in the past. That guide looked fine, and I do not see how to remove the guide near the front of the door.

The question I have - do all of your guys' windows and tracks not want to descent and ascend together? Should I just JB-weld the thing back together, or is there something else I can do to get the two aligned better? I have no idea how to remove all the window linkages, and it would be near impossible having dampening mat covering everything, but I'd like to find a good fix for these issues - or at least best I can. I'd prefer to not hear the window motor struggle anywhere in the movement. Ideas?

 I'm to the point that I'm thinking of finding two new doors, re-dampening them more carefully with the new, CLEANER, mass-loading materials on the market, and go from there. Applying closed cell foam to the door panel rather than the door itself would make other work easier...
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on April 30, 2012, 07:32:27 AM
Ford fastened their windows to their regulators like this for a long time, I fix a couple of these a month during the summer. The trick is to get the tabs attached to the window in the right spot, or the regulator arm will tear them off sideways.  Also, you need something that will still be just a little flexible, and J B Weld is too hard.  In dealer we spray everything down in brake cleaner after its "clean" and fix the tabs back to the window with black RTV.  That's right Black RTV.  Blue is too soft, grey is too hard, and nobody should use orange for anything but exhaust, as it's resistant to heat, but nothing else.  BLACK RTV, fill the tab with it, press it on, put the window in and roll the window up. leave it up for 2 to 3 days and you're good;  assuming you've put the tabs in the right spots.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Masejoer on April 30, 2012, 10:11:31 AM
Any comments on the track wanting to pull away from the window (horizontally) about halfway down the window's travel? Is this normal behavior for these car's window tracks?
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on April 30, 2012, 10:30:16 PM
Make sure it's not the window pulling away from the track, or the track hanging unsecured.  Also, if you DID use an epoxy, and it didn't yield while your tabs were out of their correct position, I would guess that it would find other ways to pull itself apart.  Remember that the original mounting had enough give to it to allow the tabs to flex and stretch a little.  J B Weld is, like any other epoxy, hard and solid.  If you reach a point in the windows movement where it is intended for the tabs to flex, and they are unable, you'll definitely get some bind at that point.  Seriously, brake cleaner and BLACK RTV.  Don't forget to spray your window runs with silicone spray lube, also.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Masejoer on April 30, 2012, 11:41:25 PM
The fact that the track is far away from the window at the halfway point is what worries me. The track goes under the window again at the top and bottom of the travel. See the pictures below to see what I mean. The scratches came from sing the jbweld off and is now a concern with the stress being placed on the window from the clips. I have spare windows available I can grab in the coming months.

Clip vertical:
(http://home.comcast.net/~s.g.s/windowtrack_1.jpg)

Clip leaning in to window:
(http://home.comcast.net/~s.g.s/windowtrack_2.jpg)

Condition of guides:
(http://home.comcast.net/~s.g.s/windowtrack_3.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~s.g.s/windowtrack_4.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~s.g.s/windowtrack_5.jpg)
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Haystack on May 01, 2012, 04:04:00 AM
Honestly, I think the window shape has more to do with the travel then the cruddy metal that tracks it.

As a former smoker, I rolled my window up and down constantly all winter for two years. Jb weld didn't work for more then a couple days. Black windsheild adhesive worked very well. After getting the drivers side done, decided to just throw some on passemger side. It was binding badly on passenger side, but worked for 2 years that way. The clip wasn't even close to lined up.

With everything lined up and clean, run the window up and down a couple times and watch where the clips self center, I marked mine off with electrical tape. Then I pulled the window back out and glued it outside the window. This was because I was doing it in the middle of winter, and winsheild adhesive is expensive, and one time use.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 01, 2012, 06:46:55 AM
Home depot for some various steel to fab a full length window fixture. Fire up the spark machine and get window adhesive. When finished you will have a full length clamp rail and never have that issue again. I make dozens of these and they work perfectly. This is the only way i found to fix the issue. Once you make the full length rail fill it with window GOOP. Install it and crank the window closed. Next morning you window will work flawlessly for many many years. The 2 little plastic GYZMOS are inadequate to hold the assembly and should not be used. You can also use several plastic GYZMOS glued to the glass and use an aluminum cross bar between the regulator mounting points if you do not have a SPARK MACHINE or dont know how to weld.  Bolt a piece of flat stock across the mounting points and install several clips along the window. 2 clips just wont hold. Below is a rail i made for the MIDNIGHTER

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/005-2.jpg)

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/002-5.jpg)
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on May 01, 2012, 07:24:03 AM
Did anybody else notice that his window regulator is twisted like a pretzel?  For crying out loud, in one pic it's mounting bar is beyond the window track!  The regulator should be flat, as if once removed from the door, it would lay flat on the ground.  He's binding because his regulator is bent up.  You can make all the custom fixes you want, but in the end, he still needs a window regulator and BLACK RTV.  This is what I do for a living, Electrical and trim.  At the Dealer.  I am a specialist, and I know a borked regulator when I see one.  These pictures say more to me about the problem than he ever could.  The regulator cannot POSSIBLY move the window through its proper range of motion in this condition.  Pull the regulator.  And replace the missing bushing for the power lock actuator.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Masejoer on May 01, 2012, 10:27:59 AM
The pictures helped me understand the interior of the door, but it's still a tight fit. How many bolts are there because years ago I tried to remove everything from the door for complete paint, but couldn't.

Also, those plastic clips for the power lock aren't a get-it-at-the-junkyard type part?! The rattling has been annoying me for awhile and I thought my only chance was pulling a used brittle one from another car! Nice to see you noticed that - you DO know what to look for.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on May 01, 2012, 11:57:35 AM
No, they're a $1.50 part at the dealer.  We all still have them or can get them.  For the regulator, try Dorman, as you probably won't get one from Ford anymore.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 01, 2012, 12:47:20 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;388547
Did anybody else notice that his window regulator is twisted like a pretzel?  For crying out loud, in one pic it's mounting bar is beyond the window track!  The regulator should be flat, as if once removed from the door, it would lay flat on the ground.  He's binding because his regulator is bent up.  You can make all the custom fixes you want, but in the end, he still needs a window regulator and BLACK RTV.  This is what I do for a living, Electrical and trim.  At the Dealer.  I am a specialist, and I know a borked regulator when I see one.  These pictures say more to me about the problem than he ever could.  The regulator cannot POSSIBLY move the window through its proper range of motion in this condition.  Pull the regulator.  And replace the missing bushing for the power lock actuator.


I cant see the twist and before posting my fix which by the way works perfectly. I did not look at his photos. But as a professional in this area i have repaired dozens of these windows. If the regulator is bent that has to be addressed. And just for the record why did the factory clips break away from the glass in the first place. Answer age and bad design. And normally when it breaks away the regulator gets bent. Of course it has to be straightened.  Just curious what is the RTV fore and why BLACK???? Not to hold the plastic clips in???? Because that does not work. Now i have several cars with my fix that works. Just trying to pass on info and stuff i design. Bottom line is i increased the holding area 10 FOLD. As for the straightness of the regulator that is a GIVEN. So bottom line is 2 silly clips that are way to small for what they do are better  than a full length track i designed?????? Just asking!!!! Over the years i have used every chemical on this planet to hold those clips in and nothing works. Increasing the surface area of the track works . Once it is installed it never happens again!!!
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 01, 2012, 12:59:06 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;388569
No, they're a $1.50 part at the dealer.  We all still have them or can get them.  For the regulator, try Dorman, as you probably won't get one from Ford anymore.

Thats why i make my own. By the way their is a company that makes them with 2 set screws that tighten up the part to the glass. THEY DONT WORK EITHER!!!


You can get some from here. But once again they dont work either!!!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RNB-38480/?rtype=10
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Haystack on May 01, 2012, 01:32:31 PM
Dorman has them. They come with different styles of them. Two of them looked the same as the ones in there, then there were two that were roughly twice the size, length and depth. I used the two large ones on one side. I also roughened up the glass with sand paper and driled a couple holes into them to give the glue more holding area. This worked well, and I think toms entire length fix work even better. What tears the window out is the window glue holding the clips in place as the window goes up and down.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on May 01, 2012, 05:01:15 PM
I've been using black RTV for 13 years, it always works.  Don't ask me why, when I first started when I was 19, the older guys in the shop told me to use it, and I've never had a repeat repair, except the one time I used grey rtv, and the time I tried bumper epoxy.  (Both on my 87 T-Bird, but I didn't know any better at the time) Any time I did it the old timers' way, I never saw the car again for the same repair.  As to the reason they originally come off in the first place, our cars are all at least 25 years old.  That's a lot of cycles, and depending where you live, thermal cycling is even worse (think 0 degrees to whatever the door warms up to once the car's heat has been running). Speaking of cold weather, anybody ever get their window frozen shut? There's a reasonably finite number of times an adhesive bond can withstand that, and the reason a silicone adhesive was used by Ford and ,to the best of my knowledge, it's technicians is that it's an engineered weak point to prevent damage to other components (think fuse link).  Who wants their window to break?, or the fastening points in the door to tear out?, because I've seen them all, and I'd rather have the tabs come off the window.  It's easier to fix.  Of course, most of the newer stuff now uses nylon connectors and hardware, or the weak point is engineered into the regulator in the form of a nylon pulley wheel, etc.  But you guys with custom fixes are painting yourselves into a corner.  Fixing it to death.  I'm not trying to get in a g match, but I know how to fix it, and I know why it's best fixed that way.

As for the actuator bushing, spend 2.25 on a new bushing and a pop rivet, it's faster than making one or harvesting one.  Just sayin.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 01, 2012, 06:19:44 PM
But you guys with custom fixes are painting yourselves into a corner. Fixing it to death. I'm not trying to get in a g match, but I know how to fix it, and I know why it's best fixed that way.

No g match

YOU ARE WRONG ON YOUR POST. Your above post is very fascinating but entirely incorrect. By the way 100% silicone is just that. The color makes absolutely no difference. If you dont
believe me call them!!!

Fixing it to death. I'm not trying to get in a g match, but I know how to fix it, and I know why it's best fixed that way.

REALLY FASCINATING AT BEST. You do know their is special adhesive for installing those clips. And it does not WORK EITHER.

Just for the record this is what i use. Not SILICONE. Silicone is great but does not adhere to glass very well. Here you go

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Marine/Home/Products/Catalog/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECIE20S4K7000000_nid=GS51JKDTTHgsQH8HT14PGTgl1ZRC9RGN5Fbl

The window issue is plastered all over every ford site. I have been fixing these windows for many many ears and i am telling you thayt i have never found any other way to eliminate the issue. And i have tried everything on this planet.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 01, 2012, 06:28:35 PM
Quote from: Haystack;388581
Dorman has them. They come with different styles of them. Two of them looked the same as the ones in there, then there were two that were roughly twice the size, length and depth. I used the two large ones on one side. I also roughened up the glass with sand paper and driled a couple holes into them to give the glue more holding area. This worked well, and I think toms entire length fix work even better. What tears the window out is the window glue holding the clips in place as the window goes up and down.


Yes the whole idea is to get more serface area on the glass and bracket. How you do it is not my concern. But the bigger clips are a plus. If people worked on the old cars they had metal brackets with welting. We used to tap the glass in to the channel with the welting folded in half. That was something that held. With my brackets you increase the surface area and that is the best way to fix it. Either way i dont care and i have sold dozens of these and i smiled all the way to the BANK.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Masejoer on May 01, 2012, 07:07:45 PM
I hope you guys realize that this is a VERY good conversation/debate. For years all I've seen is silicone this, jb weld that, windshield adhesive, etc. I was hoping to find the actual culprit of the problem and find a solution for everyone who may search for this problem on the message board.

So my question now - how do I remove the regulator? I have to cut a couple holes in the dampening mat to get to the bolts, which I foolishly covered up a few years back.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: hypostang on May 01, 2012, 09:29:19 PM
Silicone has NEVER worked for me . it just won't stick to the glass well enough.  The window weld by 3m that  Tom posted the link to has worked, as well as some other application specific products . YMMV  :)
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on May 01, 2012, 10:49:28 PM
Different RTV formulations have different colors, everybody knows this.  Blue RTV is primarily for sealing liquid in metal, Orange RTV has a high temperature tolerance and is only useful in exhaust (some guys do this, I prefer a good gasket), clear RTV is used to seal liquids against plastic, grey RTV is used in high pressure seals between metal especially aluminum, and black RTV is most useful sealing petroleum products against metals AND plastics.  RTV is certainly NOT all the same, there are differences in hardness, chemical resistance, thermal tolerance, bond strength, set time, flexibility, etc.  Your 3M product doesn't work for you, because it's made for sealing windshields and other fixed position glass such as quarter glass; our body shop uses tons of it for that purpose and to great effect.  Most people who claim that nothing works aren't either cleaning the parts properly, aren't setting the tabs in the right place (you have to be careful because once you clean the glass your reference points may be gone), or aren't allowing a full 48 to 72 hours for the bond to fully cure before removing pressure from it, and inflexible bonds fail the fastest whether properly bonded or not.  I wish there were a good way to retrofit the clamps used in F-150's since 04, they clamp on the same way, but using a bolt to squeeze the glass between two steel plates and rubber gaskets using a cantilever method, instead of a flexible adhesive, I've never seen one let go, I've only seen the ones they use in the 11 and newer edge/explorer crack the glass (which is a laminate 'sound screen' glass like your windshield, it has layers).  Still, these would be better for us, that way we wouldn't have to bicker about adhesives.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 02, 2012, 06:14:35 AM
LISTEN my body shop has been in business since 1901 My Grandfather started it then my dad now me and i am semi retired and now JR has it. Silicons--  Some are formulated differently but bottom line is they dont stick to glass very well. In the years i have been in the business all the reps that come to my SHOP have never recommended BLACK SILICONE to set windows tracks ETC. IT JUST AINT SO. Personally i have never seen a glass guy use it as well in a strength situation.


DID YOU NOT WRITE THIS???? >>> I wish there were a good way to retrofit the clamps used in F-150's since 04, they clamp on the same way, but using a bolt to squeeze the glass between two steel plates and rubber gaskets using a cantilever method, instead of a flexible adhesive, I've never seen one let go,

DID I NOT WRITE THIS READ ABOVE>>>>>Thats why i make my own. By the way their is a company that makes them with 2 set screws that tighten up the part to the glass. THEY DONT WORK EITHER!!!

So if you like you can drill and tap my custom rail and install screws. (your option) The screws were going to be added to my design if the adhesive i used did not work. But it worked and i think is the best way to fix this inherent flawed design.  Either way do you think in the years i have been in the business we never tried SILICONE for this application??? WE DID SEVERAL TIMES. IT DOES NOT WORK!!!

May I suggest something!!!!! Next time a mirror falls off a windshield glue the bracket on with silicone then install the MIRROR. I would love to see you do this and have it hold to the WINDSHIELD
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on May 02, 2012, 07:23:08 AM
They're not setscrews, it's a bolt, a single bolt that passes below the window into the opposing plate and draws clamping force upon the window and there is one under the front of the glass and under the back of the glass.  It works in the F-trucks and other vehicles which have no permanently attached tabs.  They're also used starting on 2011 on Edge and Explorer, however, when over-torqued they crack the layered-glass window.  And as for your mirror comment, now you're just being silly and useless to the purpose of the thread.  A mirror mount doesn't require a flexible bond, and a mirror mount hangs against gravity, a power window does not.  Don't forget the purpose of the thread, a guy asked for help.  Getting sarcastic with me helps nobody.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/78/Trollface.svg/200px-Trollface.svg.png)
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Haystack on May 02, 2012, 09:23:08 AM
The 86 doors I delt with also had ahole in the glass. You could just stick a bolt through them with some rubber to stop it from rattling.

The real problem is how the clips are held on. The clips don't just hold the window up and down, they also adhear to the window, and tension between the clips on the glass is what makes the window go down. It slides back and forth in the sliders. First tike it binds at all, it will pull the window off the tracks if there is bad adhesion.

Windsheild adhesive is semi flexdible, and has probably 10 or 15 times the strength of silicone. If the window binds, it will not just rip off the clips the first time. Jb weld is solid, but has very little adhesion, and silicone is even less strong and less flexable. Using a solid channel acrossed the whole window makes it so the clips should have no side to side stress, an will take the rigidity of the mechanisium off the clips. This way all the channel has to do is hold the window.

Really I'll bet most of it just stops bindng by taking the "play" out. The extra length in channel gives more surface area for adhesion. It fixes two Problems that the clips are supposed to do on their own.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: EricCoolCats on May 02, 2012, 10:55:31 AM
The glass shop that does all of my work had sold me aluminum clips for one of my old cars (think it was an '88 Cougar). They totally replace the plastic clips and provide much more rigidity. Coupled with their glass adhesive, the metal clips totally solve all issues related to the glass detaching (1987-88 cars). I believe they were $25 each but he had tons of them in stock.

Something that people just may want to explore. And honestly, the clips were very simply designed, could probably be easily manufactured by an entrepreneur-type.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Beau on May 02, 2012, 11:55:31 AM
Man, you guys are a curse....both of my door windows have pulled off of the clips in the last week or so. Thanks for nothin' fellas!

Looks like I'll be getting some black RTV soon...
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 02, 2012, 01:21:23 PM
a mirror mount hangs against gravity, a power window does not.

Fascinating COMMENT

When a window gets iced over and you hit the down BUTTON. If the bond from the window and the clips are poor they separate. Those forces are much higher than a mirror glass bond. By the way you can also design my fix with a clamping design.( I initially was going to do it that way.)  All you have to do is make the channel deeper and use screws to provide you clamping arrangement. I personally would advise against that as the glass will most likely break. Also i dont know about others but my car does not have laminated glass. So be it as it may i have the fix. If you have another way to do it GO RIGHT AHEAD. At this time i checked my repair dospoogeents and i have repaired 44 Windows with my FIX. NONE FAILED AS OF YET.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 02, 2012, 01:48:23 PM
WELL WELL JR just pointed out we have a T BIRD window job in the shop as we speak.

A customer that used the old SILICONE TRICK ON HIS WINDOW. He wants me to fix it properly. Note the silicone did not hold. The guy said he did it twice with no luck. Well time to fire up the spark machine and build some new tracks for this guy.

U

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/002-66.jpg)

(http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/003-43.jpg)
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: 1BadBird on May 02, 2012, 04:08:52 PM
It looks like a clear sillycone that don't hold squat period.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: T-BirdX3 on May 02, 2012, 05:08:20 PM
In those pics it looks to me like the OEM glue wasn't removed before they "fixed" it, all adhesives need a clean fresh surface to work properly. I have never used black rtv or windshield adhesive they both could work for all I know.

For the past 5 years or so I have used Automotive GOOP and have yet to have it fail on me, but I also take the time to make sure everything is clean, working properly/smoothly, and has plenty of time to cure before putting it back together. I also use the factory plastic mounting tabs, I just take the time to drill 2 small holes through each tab to allow the glue to seep through and scuff up the glass the best that I can. Not saying this is the best thing to use, just what has worked for me. :D

Here is the link to it.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=automotive+goop&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9661363119951255701&sa=X&ei=5J-hT976BseTgwfd383eCA&ved=0CF4Q8wIwAg

Good luck with your repair! Every bird that I have bought has had at least one window that has came loose! :mad:
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Masejoer on May 02, 2012, 06:12:18 PM
Quote from: T-BirdX3;388744
In those pics it looks to me like the OEM glue wasn't removed before they "fixed" it, all adhesives need a clean fresh surface to work properly. I have never used black rtv or windshield adhesive they both could work for all I know.

I'm not sure what that is on the rear of the window. The front clip doesn't have any of that stuff. In that area, where that one clip is, it has a very uneven surface that is rock hard. I tried using a ser to get it off, but it's hard as the glass it's on. Last time I just sanded the area well and applied JB Weld. The JB Weld held until I tried rolling the window down one morning when the ice was apparently stronger than a typical thin coating (had to roll down to see anything - sing ice off wasn't enough). The window motors just ripped the clips off. I'll grab a picture of the spot next time I have the window out. For all I know, someone could have applied something to that area of the window long before I got the car.

My passenger side doesn't have that rock-solid stuff on it either. That one's also not the original door though.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Chrome on May 02, 2012, 07:53:45 PM
Quote from: Seek;388750
I'm not sure what that is on the rear of the window. The front clip doesn't have any of that stuff. In that area, where that one clip is, it has a very uneven surface that is rock hard. I tried using a ser to get it off, but it's hard as the glass it's on. Last time I just sanded the area well and applied JB Weld. The JB Weld held until I tried rolling the window down one morning when the ice was apparently stronger than a typical thin coating (had to roll down to see anything - sing ice off wasn't enough). The window motors just ripped the clips off. I'll grab a picture of the spot next time I have the window out. For all I know, someone could have applied something to that area of the window long before I got the car.

My passenger side doesn't have that rock-solid stuff on it either. That one's also not the original door though.
He was referring to Tom's last post.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on May 02, 2012, 08:05:16 PM
Looks like silicone on top of silicone.  Always fails when you don't have good cleanup.  I'm not telling you what to do in your shop, Tom, what I'm saying is what we do in mine and how well it works for us.  But this looks like something that was BOUND to fail. Clear silicone, probably the original 25 year old stuff, with black RTV around it. By the look of it, I can't be sure if it was pulled loose of the clear stuff or the black stuff. it it was the black stuff, the tabs were probably in the wrong place.  But she's your baby, you take care of it whichever way works best for you.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on May 02, 2012, 08:11:17 PM
Looks like I may have my foot in my mouth, I've just noticed that the tabs I glue on with Black RTV are made from steel, while these are made from plastic.  I don't know if that makes the difference, but if it does, I'll eat my crow.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Masejoer on May 02, 2012, 08:50:59 PM
Quote from: Chrome;388774
He was referring to Tom's last post.

Oh, duh. I was viewing this thread earlier in the day without pictures being loaded (slow internet). I see that now ;)

Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;388779
Looks like I may have my foot in my mouth, I've just noticed that the tabs I glue on with Black RTV are made from steel, while these are made from plastic.  I don't know if that makes the difference, but if it does, I'll eat my crow.

I wouldn't think so. As long as it's applied properly, and in sufficient quantity, the clip material shouldn't matter THAT much.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Chrome on May 03, 2012, 11:37:14 PM
Tom, you may want to rethink your repair, because I agree with it. lol. Plastic = bad. silicone on glass = bad. Surface area = good. However, the failed repair you posted just was not a fair comparison. It was just plain shoddy work. Clear silicone has no business being in any automotive repair.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 04, 2012, 06:03:19 AM
Tom, you may want to rethink your repair  WHY IT WORKS PERFECTLY.

By the way those old clips in most cases cant be reused any way. They loose their ability to hold properly. I have been fixing these windows since day one and have tried everything. I even tried to grind holes in the glass. That was something that almost worked but took way  to much time. I actually did grind a hole in it but it was a disaster.

Chrome i dont understand what you are trying to say??? The color of SILICONE does not make a difference. Also the repair was not dun by me. The customer did it. In the shop we use white clear blue gray yellow and every other color. Just saying!! The modified rail does 2 things. It reinforces the window regulator. (stops the flexing of the arms. And it provides a full length area for adhesion )  If you have a better way then do it. I have also had this discussion with our glass guy and he loves the idea. Even though he does not deal with older cars to much other than shops like mine. When you are dealing with old cars and unique issues you have to be thinking out of the NORM. Please explain why my FIX is not correct or where the flaw might be. Just asking Thanks.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on May 04, 2012, 10:08:35 AM
Quote from: TOM Renzo;388949
The color of SILICONE does not make a difference. Also the repair was not dun by me. The customer did it. In the shop we use white clear blue gray yellow and every other color. Just saying!!

WRONG.
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/lt1-based-engine-tech-9/what-do-difference-between-rtv-colors-362395/
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100517151638AARmIDP
http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_makers.htm
Sort it out, because I don't know who here believes you, but you're having a detrimental effect on their knowledge. By these examples, everybody else knows the difference. 
I can't say for certain what the original adhesive was, but it was a clear silicone of some type. and as you can see every time the original bond failed, it failed at the plastic, because it's almost always still stuck tightly to the glass in a nice molded shape of the inside of the clip. Clearly, plastic is the materials problem.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: hypostang on May 04, 2012, 10:16:23 AM
I think what Tom is saying (and I could be wrong) when bonding "these two" surfaces together , when fluid or sensors don't come into play , it doesn't matter which color you use it isn't going to work ...or hasn't in his experience ... I have had that same experience of silicone not bonding well to glass. 

Of course I could be wrong, but that's how I understood him.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: hypostang on May 04, 2012, 10:16:39 AM
I think what Tom is saying (and I could be wrong) when bonding "these two" surfaces together , when fluid or sensors don't come into play , it doesn't matter which color you use it isn't going to work ...or hasn't in his experience ... I have had that same experience of silicone not bonding well to glass. 

Of course I could be wrong, but that's how I understood him.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on May 04, 2012, 11:17:24 AM
If that's his point, I missed it.  In any case, I think the material problem is the plastic clips, not the adhesive (although the choice of adhesive is important).
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Haystack on May 04, 2012, 01:31:46 PM
It has nothing to do with theplastic, its the plastic and the glass both being sealed. Olastic is not pourus, and neither is glass. Because of this no glue really works well with either one. This is why jb welb works almost as well as silicone.

The have special glues that adhear to the materieals in plastic, and glass each seperately. Another this to work around, most glues don't stick to petrolium, and that is the main ingrediant of most plastics.

Roughing up the window with some sand paper isn't a bad idea. Ideally, slotting the glass would work even better, or if you had holes in it. Drilling holes in the clips gives them a lot more to hold onto. If you ever look closely at wood that has been glued, how deep the glue leaks down is going to determin how strong the bond is. The glue absorbs into the wodd and when it hardens it becomes one solid peice. This is how most glues are designed to work. Silicone is a sealent, more then a glue.

Silicone has very little. Adhesion to the surfaces it is applied to. It only covers the object, and stays rubbery. As soon as that rubber is pealed off, it will no long adhear in any way.

This is why I use the black windsheild adhesive. It is ment for metal, plastic and glass. It is seriously probably 10 times stonger or more then any silicone. And it seals perfectly, while being semi rubbery to provide some flex if the window or track ever does bind up.

The way I see it, there are two things you can do.

Gain surface area to promote adhesion (which is what tom does), or use a better/stronger glue.

The clips are held in place by the windows. There is as much or moter side to side force on the clips as there is on them. There is als force agains the clips when the window is rolling down. As soon as this seal is broken on either glue, the window is off the tracks. What tom does fixes two things. It ties the window regulator things together, getting rid of the side to side tension on the glue and the window, and uses enough surface area that wood glue would probably work to hold it in. You can't argue with results.

Also if you haven't when you fix your windows, lube the  out of it with white lithium grease. You won't believe how much faster the windows roll up and down after, and how much less load will be on the regulator.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Beau on May 04, 2012, 01:55:42 PM
The question is....is Tom going to make some of these window clips and sell some? I got some money, and 2 windows that are off the rails in my crazy train...errr, Bird.
 :rollin::punchballs:
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on May 04, 2012, 03:37:48 PM
I'm curious, what is the finished weight of this steel "Unitab"?  I ask because what comes down has to go back up. 

As a side note, when lubing the window glass runs, I believe that silicone spray lube is the correct lubricant, but I don't want the thread to next become a debate over THAT as well.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Chrome on May 04, 2012, 03:40:55 PM
:poke:
Quote from: TOM Renzo;388949
Tom, you may want to rethink your repair  WHY IT WORKS PERFECTLY.

By the way those old clips in most cases cant be reused any way. They loose their ability to hold properly. I have been fixing these windows since day one and have tried everything. I even tried to grind holes in the glass. That was something that almost worked but took way  to much time. I actually did grind a hole in it but it was a disaster.

Chrome i dont understand what you are trying to say??? The color of SILICONE does not make a difference. Also the repair was not dun by me. The customer did it. In the shop we use white clear blue gray yellow and every other color. Just saying!! The modified rail does 2 things. It reinforces the window regulator. (stops the flexing of the arms. And it provides a full length area for adhesion )  If you have a better way then do it. I have also had this discussion with our glass guy and he loves the idea. Even though he does not deal with older cars to much other than shops like mine. When you are dealing with old cars and unique issues you have to be thinking out of the NORM. Please explain why my FIX is not correct or where the flaw might be. Just asking Thanks.

 
You didn't read it close enough. I said rethink your repair because I agree with it. We never agree on anything. lol. The failed repair you showed just didn't help your argument any because of the poor workmanship, which by the way, it was most obvious that you did not do. As for the silicone, different colors are rated for different tasks. Clear is mainly for consruction type work and not automotive.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Masejoer on May 04, 2012, 04:04:04 PM
Quote from: Chrome;388993
:poke:
 
You didn't read it close enough. I said rethink your repair because I agree with it. We never agree on anything. lol. The failed repair you showed just didn't help your argument any because of the poor workmanship, which by the way, it was most obvious that you did not do. As for the silicone, different colors are rated for different tasks. Clear is mainly for consruction type work and not automotive.

I think I found a solution (sarcasm ahead). Last night I was removing some adhering expanding spray foam from my rear deck after using it to fill in the rear speaker holes some years back. Even with a ser, that won't come off of filthy paint! No idea which brand I used, but that stuff is adhering better than JB Weld ever has for me, and it's fairly tough to stab through/tear apart. It'd hold on the clips and sanded glass I'm sure.  I swear that stuff's a miracle material when applied in certain cirspoogestances, and is able to glaze over due to the heat of the sun over years.

Anyway, am I hearing that, although it may be lens distortion of the phone's camera, the clip should not be the 1/2-3/4" away from the window when mounted to the regulator and the window is halfway down? Replace this and all should be well with new adhesive of choice (black silicone apparently)? I'm not applying more lithium grease right now as there's still tons of the stuff everywhere from lubing it up last year. It helped many years back after its first application.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: hypostang on May 04, 2012, 04:09:28 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;388991
/As a side note, when lubing the window glass runs, I believe that silicone spray lube is the correct lubricant, but I don't want the thread to next become a debate over THAT as well.

 There is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to lubing the window mechanisms  .... silicone spray works good for the rubber channels without being too messy , but it really is a personal choice .
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TheFoeYouKnow on May 04, 2012, 04:22:56 PM
When I have squeaky regulators I use white lithium, but I try to keep it away from the glass, because it makes a big mess. While I've never seen it, I have often suspected that greasing rubber window glass runs might make them harden.  But like I said, I've never used white lithium on glass runs, my customers complain too loudly about the grease that oversprays when I use it on regulators for me to PURPOSELY put it on their glass.  Hard to clean up completely.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: hypostang on May 04, 2012, 04:28:58 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;389000
When I have squeaky regulators I use white lithium, but I try to keep it away from the glass, because it makes a big mess. While I've never seen it, I have often suspected that greasing rubber window glass runs might make them harden.  But like I said, I've never used white lithium on glass runs, my customers complain too loudly about the grease that oversprays when I use it on regulators for me to PURPOSELY put it on their glass.  Hard to clean up completely.

I agree , it is messy as heck ...  personally I try NOT to make a mess , but to each his own
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Haystack on May 04, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
I used a tube to apply it,no spray or calk gun or anything like that. It doesn't take much...
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Chrome on May 04, 2012, 08:37:22 PM
Quote from: Haystack;388973
It has nothing to do with theplastic, its the plastic and the glass both being sealed. Olastic is not pourus, and neither is glass. Because of this no glue really works well with either one. This is why jb welb works almost as well as silicone.

The have special glues that adhear to the materieals in plastic, and glass each seperately. Another this to work around, most glues don't stick to petrolium, and that is the main ingrediant of most plastics.

Roughing up the window with some sand paper isn't a bad idea. Ideally, slotting the glass would work even better, or if you had holes in it. Drilling holes in the clips gives them a lot more to hold onto. If you ever look closely at wood that has been glued, how deep the glue leaks down is going to determin how strong the bond is. The glue absorbs into the wodd and when it hardens it becomes one solid peice. This is how most glues are designed to work. Silicone is a sealent, more then a glue.

Silicone has very little. Adhesion to the surfaces it is applied to. It only covers the object, and stays rubbery. As soon as that rubber is pealed off, it will no long adhear in any way.

This is why I use the black windsheild adhesive. It is ment for metal, plastic and glass. It is seriously probably 10 times stonger or more then any silicone. And it seals perfectly, while being semi rubbery to provide some flex if the window or track ever does bind up.

The way I see it, there are two things you can do.

Gain surface area to promote adhesion (which is what tom does), or use a better/stronger glue.

The clips are held in place by the windows. There is as much or moter side to side force on the clips as there is on them. There is als force agains the clips when the window is rolling down. As soon as this seal is broken on either glue, the window is off the tracks. What tom does fixes two things. It ties the window regulator things together, getting rid of the side to side tension on the glue and the window, and uses enough surface area that wood glue would probably work to hold it in. You can't argue with results.

Also if you haven't when you fix your windows, lube the  out of it with white lithium grease. You won't believe how much faster the windows roll up and down after, and how much less load will be on the regulator.


x2
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 05, 2012, 08:30:16 PM
http://www.amazon.com/2-8-Ounce-Silicone-Rubber-Marine-Sealant/dp/B000PSB1VY
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 05, 2012, 08:42:32 PM
Quote from: TheFoeYouKnow;389000
When I have squeaky regulators I use white lithium, but I try to keep it away from the glass, because it makes a big mess. While I've never seen it, I have often suspected that greasing rubber window glass runs might make them harden.  But like I said, I've never used white lithium on glass runs, my customers complain too loudly about the grease that oversprays when I use it on regulators for me to PURPOSELY put it on their glass.  Hard to clean up completely.


Talspooge Powder!!!!
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: TOM Renzo on May 05, 2012, 08:58:58 PM
Quote from: Chrome;389015
x2


Thanks Stacks and Chrome

Note Chrome thanks i miss read your post as usual. Sometimes i read things between the lines incorrectly. I apologize. Have a great weekend Tom

NOTE i have never thought about making parts to sell. Something i might consider. Making parts to overcome a problem is what i like to do. I have a degree in mechanical engineering so my mind works in strange ways. Normally my tinkering is because of poor design by car companies or problems that are unique to older and new  vehicles.  But if i sit idle on a problem it is something i dont do. I always find a fix one way or the other. As far as silicons go GE that invented it claims that color does not make a difference. They do color the product for identification and to satisfy a color base for product matching. But it does not change it's property's as i have asked GE this question years ago. As far as using it in the shop i use it all the time in the repair section of my shop . But FOE you should be informed that body men and body shops avoid the stuff like the PLAGUE. So FOE do me a favor and ask the body guys what they think about SILICONE PRODUCTS IN THEIR SHOP??? Post the answer back!!! Thanks for the suggestion 302 about making parts to sell. But i make so many custom parts i would need a factory. Thank YOU
Title: Organic solutions
Post by: I_Snort_Flour on April 14, 2018, 02:35:03 AM
I fix mine with a home made blend of buggers and bong resign. Only problem is while working with it i get hungry and eat it before it sets. I agree with the black rtv however and was going to use it to fix my windows this last time but after replacing my regulator bushings and opting for a gel crazy glue base black rtv top coat i broke my saddle and was running out of time before work so i bonded it back together with loud crazy glue until i could walk away and change before work and only having 2 minutes to spare opted for a temp fix of gorilla glue to get me through the day so once it breaks free I'll be using black rtv and looking for a better grade solution as the front causes the bind and white lithium grease leaves a little mess which wouldn't bother me if it lasted longer than 2 weeks but it don't and I'm too lazy to grease it twice a month.
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: Haystack on April 14, 2018, 12:29:52 PM
What?

White lithium lasts way, way, way longer then 2 weeks, and probably much longer then anything you would rather eat then put on window tracks...
Title: Once again, door windows/tracks/clips
Post by: I_Snort_Flour on April 18, 2018, 07:11:21 PM
Quote from: Haystack;465296
What?
White lithium lasts way, way, way longer then 2 weeks, and probably much longer then anything you would rather eat then put on window tracks...

That was a joke but,
White lithium attracts and collects dust and dirt so if you live or are exposed to them conditions white lithium becomes more like sandpaper than a lube and works its way off. I probably should have also stated I was using white lithium spray lube not white lithium grease from a tube. Either way i dislike white lithium compared to the last thing i just tried as so far using a gel krazy glue at the bottom of the sash clip for holding strength combined with white gorilla glue in-between the window and sash filling up the rest of the sash as white gorilla glue is flexible, adhere's well with plastic and glass while the gel krazy glue takes the pressure away from the white gorilla glue while rolling down the window combined that with pb blaster dry lube spray with Teflon and has been holding nicely for a couple weeks now and set time before window usual was less than 3 hours total. Just like spray white lithium it leaves a little white residue which is also just as easy to run the excess off as the lithium using just your fingers if you want to. Another good spray lube you could use that should last some time without attracting dust and debris is handyman dry lube with ptfe or any other dry lube ptfe lube brands as long as they don't contain anti inhibitors. I just took my door apart again as i didn't have and white lithium conventional lube around and tried getting by with beating grease but that sized my window motor when it was cold and bought the pb blaster with Teflon at the same time so if it lasts a month or more I'll write back but as it had already died in my window seals and prevents total binding on the front part the window at the 95% up point i don't foresee it wasn't away fast anytime soon as Teflon and ptfe are widely used on cooking ware it should last some time i am thinking. Either way can is cheap and easy to apply the gel super glue without white gorilla glue online nicely as I've never going a single worth while application as white gorilla glue has never worked it help in getting to successfully applied without it being free in a couple days to a few weeks. Dry lube is easy to apply, easy to clean and dry to usable for in just a few minutes.