Technical => Suspension/Steering => Topic started by: Mikey97D on August 08, 2019, 02:15:50 PM
Title: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Mikey97D on August 08, 2019, 02:15:50 PM
I am not ready yet to do a 5 lug swap and remove the TEVES. Maybe in a couple years.
The brakes in my car feel "vague" is about the only way I can describe it. The pedal doesn't give much feedback what is going on. I have done a couple emergency stops but the wheels didn't lock up so I assume the ABS works, but I didn't the clatter of it turning on either.
The rotors and pads look fairly new on the car, but I am not opposed to swapping them out. I am planning on bleeding the brakes, replacing the pins in the front and find the shims for the pads if any.
Any suggestions on what else to do other than bleeding the lines? Maybe some other pads?
Thanks! Mike
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: mcb82gt on August 08, 2019, 03:05:22 PM
Maybe swapping the master cylinder also. I plan on doing that soon. I suspect it may be leaking internally. Its the original piece and may have been damaged by bleeding brakes in the past. Fortunately they are cheap.
Stainless flexible brake lines may help also.
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Tbird232ci on August 09, 2019, 04:56:21 AM
There are a lot of things you can do to get some more out of your braking system, but the most important thing is to start by making sure it's all working properly.
Start by looking over your rubber lines first. My car had decent lines between the body and calipers. The line between the body and the rear looked like this: (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47859554672_bc4f56bcbf_c.jpg)
Doing a full flush of the brake fluid is also a big help. Brake fluid collects moisture and other over time, and that will squish and compress and give you a py pedal feel.
Something I did on a previous car that helped a bit was some stainless caliper sleeves. I forgot where I initially got them, but Maximum Motorsports carries them. They replace the rubber sleeves in the front calipers that the slide pin passes through. They help keep the caliper more square with the rotor.
Pads will also help greatly. A more aggressive pad will make the brakes feel more responsive and add more stopping power. The problem is that these cars have fewer options than they once did. You can probably find some good front pads, but the rears are very limited.
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Jack Hidley on August 11, 2019, 03:35:17 AM
232ci,
What year and model is the car in your axle housing photo?
Is it a 7.5" or 8.8"?
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Tbird232ci on August 11, 2019, 09:44:32 PM
What year and model is the car in your axle housing photo?
Is it a 7.5" or 8.8"?
That is an 8.8 in an 88 Turbo Coupe.
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Jack Hidley on August 11, 2019, 11:28:36 PM
Thanks.
Bizzaro-world Thunderbird parts:)
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Tbird232ci on August 12, 2019, 02:10:54 AM
The Turbo Coupes have a lot of little, specific parts. It becomes a pain as companies are discontinuing correct parts and lumping part numbers together across TC and non TC cars.
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Mikey97D on August 12, 2019, 09:24:35 AM
The threads on the brakes lines are different too from the Mustang to Tbird?
I wouldn't be opposed to swapping out to some braided lines.
I am going to call MM about the CRES sleeves and some street pads for front and back. I checked the hoses on the front last time I had the front wheels off, but have not inspected any in the rear.
232ci - good point about the brake fluid absorbing water. These brakes don't have the mushy feel of contaminated water like my dirt bike, but being a car I am not sure it would feel the same in the pedal as the bike. The fluid is old and it needs to go anyways. Thanks for the link!!!
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Tbird232ci on August 14, 2019, 06:16:19 AM
I haven't done much to mess with the stock brakes in a lot of years now, so I'm not entirely sure what we can get away with for braided lines anymore. A fox body Mustang has the same size fittings on both sides on the front, where ours have a larger one on one side. I also don't know if the length is close enough. In the rear, the 94-95 SN95 lines are an almost direct swap, but once again, I'm unsure if they will work with the stock calipers. The rear center line is specific to the TC and possibly the Mark VII.
I know we did have options for stainless years ago, but the last time I looked was probably 10-12 years ago now.
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Jack Hidley on August 17, 2019, 02:51:01 AM
The big problem with using Mustang brake hoses on a Thunderbird is that the Thunderbird is designed for more suspension travel, so the hoses are longer and/or routed differently. In particular this really applies to the rear center hose.
We do have rear caliper hoses which will fit on a Thunderbird TC. These are in the 1994-95 Mustang section.
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Mikey97D on January 27, 2020, 01:10:50 PM
Thanks to Jack for helping me order the correct parts through the technical assistance on Maximum Motorsports.
I will update my "Work in Progress" thread with the brakes and other items located here: https://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/index.php?topic=40904.0 (https://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/index.php?topic=40904.0)
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Mikey97D on April 06, 2020, 10:38:55 AM
Couple questions on the braided brakes lines that I hope between TBird232ci and Mr. Hidley can help me on.
The front brake lines hex that is supposed to go through the bracket does not fit on the MM lines. Suggestions? The original hex on the hose line was .635" versus the larger MM hex size. I did try rotating it a few times to see if there was a spot with the lower flat that would go, but no luck. Thinking maybe safety wire it down using the retaining ring groove after assembled with a few steering wheel cycles (left-right). (https://i.imgur.com/KVNSXGLl.jpg)
The rear brake line hits the bracket for the quad shock bracket. I was thinking of bending the MM bracket so the hose doesn't rub. Good or bad idea? (https://i.imgur.com/jlPQrQXl.jpg)
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 06, 2020, 04:59:18 PM
On the front brakes I took a triangular metal file and opened up the hex hole on the mounting tab. Another possible solution would to be source them off of a Fox or SN95 Mustang.
Just bend the rear mounting tabs but pay attention to the suspension travel so you don't put the brake line in harms way. Another solution would be to get good UCA's and LCA's, remove the quad shock, and cut the quad shock bracket of the rear end housing. That is what I did on both my cars but I view the quad shocks as a terrible band aid.
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Mikey97D on April 06, 2020, 08:56:40 PM
Thanks Aerocoupe for the sanity check on bending the brackets to clear the bracket and what to look for clearance. I gave them a little tweak and all set. Hopefully by next year I won't need the quad shock anymore.
I didn't think about filing the brackets out to fit the lines. I will give it a go tomorrow.
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Mikey97D on April 07, 2020, 04:00:42 PM
Thanks to Aerocoupe for the tip. Took a bit of time filing both and I also used a dremel to help with the id. Added a coat of paint.
(https://i.imgur.com/yvIvn1Xl.jpg)
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Mikey97D on April 09, 2020, 12:41:05 PM
Front brake and lines are on.
The '88 TC front calipers are different than the SN95 calipers. The directions from MM (excellent directions, BTW) show the brake line connecting to the center of caliper that is opposite of where the piston actuates from. The TC's come out the side as shown below right behind the strut. This made it difficult to get a torque wrench on even with a crows foot at 90° to 14 ft-lbs. As you can see in the photo I found the best angle for me was 45° inboard before torquing. No other troubles other than modifying the bracket to fit the MM line. (https://i.imgur.com/epwS47al.jpg)
I tested left to right then with the wheels on and nothing rubs so far. Once it is on the ground I will need to retest.
MM Front Brake Hose Kit, 1994-04 (MMBK4F) Hawk Performance Pads (Street) HB263B.650 SVE Stainless Steel Insert SVE-H5016-CS from LMR
Unfortunately, MM was having a supplier problem for their inserts. The SVE inserts did not all press into the caliper and some were more of a running fit. I am tempted to use Loctite 680 on the OD of the inserts but not sure it will hold up to the temperatures to hold for a cylindrical bond.
I used Loctite 242 for the thread on the pins. Unfortunately I was left to only cleaning them and reuse (wrong part delivered from local parts store). I will replace these once the world returns to "normal".
Waiting for calipers to arrive since mine won't retract the last 1/4" to go back on with the new pads. I will probably look at rebuilding my originals down the road and lose my deposit.
Title: Re: '88 Turbo Coupe optimizing the stock brakes?
Post by: Mikey97D on April 15, 2020, 10:16:02 AM
The calipers arrived Easter Sunday. Not sure why but that is when Fed-Ex decided to deliver a ground shipping package.
My wife got to learn about bleeding brakes again. I went through about 2 bottles of brake fluid and stopped before I ran out. I followed the procedure on NATO for brake bleeding on the TC.
Quote
Brake Bleeding by Martin Bokesch On the brake bleeding, the antilock system requires a bit different approach than conventional brakes. If your going to bleed the system, its the right time to flush them, which means keep bleeding until the fluid runs clear as well as no bubbles. As the T/C uses an electric break pump and a pressure storage acspoogeulator the system is different in the requirements for bleeding. The front brakes can be bled the old fashioned way. One person pumping and the other opening and closing the bleed screws. There is no need to start with the rear brakes first as they are isolated through the system antilock valve and the , but its a good habit to do it by the book. The back brakes have to be bled with the acspoogeulator charged up. Jack up the car and block it. Turn the ignition on and let the brake boost pump build up pressure and cut out. Start with the right rear, have someone push and hold the brake pedal down, do not pump, leave the key on as the pump has to be able to kick in to rebuild pressure during the whole procedure on the back. With the pedal down, open the bleed screw for about 10 seconds, then close it. CAUTION there is a lot of pressure at the screws, so open slowly. Also, don't run the brake pump motor for more than 20 minutes at a time, as the motor may overheat and kick out. There is a thermal overload switch in the motor to protect it so if it does stop, you'll have to wait for a while until everything cools down. Do this until the fluid runs clear, no bubbles. Move to the drivers side and do the same. Alternate between the 2 sides until the fluid is clear and no bubbles. It helps if you can slip a tube over the end of the bleeder screw and insert it into a bottle with some water in it. If air is coming out of the system, the tube end submerged in the collection bottle will show up as bubbles. When the bubbles stop, the air is out. I mentioned using water because brake fluid is not mineral oil, so why waste it. Brake fluid is actually made up more of an antifreeze solution. The front brakes bleed with or without acspoogeulator chare pressure. Just use the same hose and collection bottle set up, start on the passenger side. Have you "helper" pump the pedal up and down about 5 times. Get into the habit of counting this down so you get a sequence developed. At the 5 pump, pump down and hold the pedal down. Do not let go until told. With the pedal held down, open the bleed screw slowly and allow the fluid to drain. Unlike the back brakes, the fluid will come out in a steady stream then weaken and drop ff to no fluid at all. When this happens, tighten the screw and pump it again, hold bleed, tighten and keep repeating the process until the fluid is clean and no air. Move to the drivers side repeat. Again, as with the rear, do both sides at least twice to ensure there is no more air in the system. When all done, with the key on, brake pressure built up in the acspoogeulator, pump the brakes about 15 times to settle the fluid and pistons into place. Turn the key off. Pump the brakes again, counting the pumps. at between 15 to 20 pumps, you should notice the pedal pressure increase. This means that the acspoogeulator reserve has been used up and all is well in the brake world. It’s safe to take for a cautious test drive to settle everything back in. Any less than 15 pumps, and you still may have air in the system. One word of advice, check the fluid reservoir often, real often, nothing worse than bleeding it out of fluid and having to start over again.
My wife said she noticed a difference in the pedal pressure before 10 pumps so it probably needs to be bled again. The pedal in the garage and test / bedding drive felt good. I used the part number that TBird232ci gave me for the center rubber hose and that worked well. In the near future I will send the original hose out to have the braided line made to replace it. I will see about getting a few made too if it isn't too expensive.
I just got the car running well enough to pull out of the garage and down the street so I only bedded the brakes. So far the brakes seem much more responsive and don't feel "vague" at all. I know these are not race car brakes, but for my use on the road I am very happy with how they feel so far especially for stock size rotors and calipers.
At this point I would consider the stock brakes optimized less the center braided hose to the rear axle. Definitely worth the effort. Thanks Jack, TBird232ci and Aerocoupe for the help.