EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)

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EFI 300 I6 plus forced induction (long post)

March 07, 2005, 07:02:17 PM

Yeah, I know I brought this up many months ago and ended up shooting it down myself. However, this was back when I only had one T-bird to mess around with, and it was either use an inline 6 or use my 351. (or stay with my tired ol' CFI 3.8 if I decided not to swap) Now I have two Birds, and one of them is a 5.0 SO, so I can answer the "just drop a 5.0 in it" crowd with that Bird. So unless I find another Bird/Cougar that meets a specific requirement, this would probably go into my '86 when the time is right. Besides, I'm selling the 351 'cause I need the money in the short term. I'll probably buy another one somewhere down the line and stick that in the '88.

I wasn't going to post this thread about my renewed interest in the "big block 6", originally. It was enough to talk to a few of the board members on ICQ/AIM about it, because I felt there was too much of a pro-V8 bias around here to even begin to discuss swapping in anything else. (as long as it isn't an I4, I'll consider it.. I5, I6, V6, V8, V10, V12.. hell, if they made a modern straight 8 I'd probably think it was nifty chit.. but I prefer I6s for some odd reason. I'm just sick of owning 4-bangers) However, it seems there are enough people here that are into oddball swaps to merit discussing it openly. Also, I'm tired of bugging Crystal and Shawn about it every other day.. we can just dump our collected info into one thread about it.. and anyone else who might want to try the same can benefit.

Originally I thought this would end because the 300 would be WAY too big for a Fox-body engine bay. Well, yes, space is going to be an issue.. but it doesn't seem to be a deal-killer here. Between a cowl hood and the possibility of a custom K-member, it MIGHT fit. We're talking about an engine with a deck height of 10.00", straight up.. not 45 degrees off vertical. Using a tape measure and an approximation of crank centerline, I was able to determine that there's somewhere between 16-18" from the crank centerline of both my 5.0 and my 3.8 to the top of the fan shroud. That should be a start on figuring if this beast can fit, if crank centerline height is going to be roughly equal between the different engines.

Other details I've found so far about the 300:

- Same bellhousing bolt pattern as the 289/302/351W.
- Poking around Ford truck forums, it seems that the truck guys who swap from a 300 to the 302/351 use different motor mounts, but they bolt to the same location.

There should be more to this list, but I've got a lot of other junk on my mind today and it's hard to remember all the 300 stuff. I'll fill more of this in later or tomorrow.. and Crystal and Shawn can feel free to chime in, as well as anyone else who might be interested in seeing this happen. If you have any relevant info on the EFI 300, please feel free to deposit it here.

Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)

Reply #1 – March 07, 2005, 07:19:05 PM

I think this would be rather cool to see. I personally like the supra inline 6's for their stoutness, pure upgradability, and just plain ability to handle an insane amount of power (nearly 2000, at last count).
I can't say for a fact that the ford equivelent would handle the same, but i'd never put it outta the realm of possibility. It's definately an cool idea and i'd like to see a supra killer if possible! On a technical note, last I heard an inline 6 and i believe the v12 are natures perfect engine designs being as they don't need balancer's (perfect internal balance via the crank I think? :dunno: ). None-the-less, bring it on!

Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)

Reply #2 – March 07, 2005, 07:30:52 PM

Yes, inline 6s and V12s of any angle (60, 90, 180, etc.) are "naturally balanced". No balancing required at the flywheel/flexplate/etc.

I want to build the "ultimate road trip T-bird". One part of this is having something with more than enough low-end to effortlessly pull the car along at 75-80 mph while being geared for running well below 2000 RPM at that speed. But, I'd like to keep acceleration intact. That's why I'd like to pick up a gear splitter for the second overdrive option (along with an AOD or other overdrive slushbox) and use something like a 3.55 or 3.73 rear gear. Anyway, I've long known I6s to have a rep for being pretty stout in the torque department. I'm counting on that smoothness.. not just from using an inline 6, but from running it at a pretty low rev for highway speeds. Should be very smooth and very quiet, which I will enhance by extensive use of Dynamat. I'll compensate for the added weight of the Dynamat with other weight reductions where possible. Probably tubular A-arms and stuff like that. Hopefully any custom K-member I might get will also be a weight savings. (of course, structural reinforcements will offset some weight savings as well)

Sorry if this makes even less sense than my usual posts. I'm really distracted tonight.

Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)

Reply #3 – March 07, 2005, 07:33:32 PM

http://www.fordsix.com/crossflow.htm

Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)

Reply #4 – March 07, 2005, 07:38:00 PM

Oh yeah, I should probably address the "twin turbos" part.

I'm normally not a big fan of turbos. I'd rather use a supercharger. However, it just seems like it would make sense for this. It's a long, relatively thin engine with all six exhaust ports on one side. Should be plenty of room to custom fab in a couple of TC turbos. I'm told a pair of smaller turbos vs. one large turbo will spool up quickly but run out of steam at high revs. Well, I'm not looking to build for high revs. I really wouldn't care if this engine never saw anything above 5000 RPM. Hell, I'd even be willing to stick a 5k rev limiter plugin into a MSD box on this. But anyway, as of now I'm thinking one TC-sized turbo on the front 3 exhaust ports, one on the back 3.

Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)

Reply #5 – March 07, 2005, 07:44:39 PM

Quote from: slamedcat

http://www.fordsix.com/crossflow.htm

I know about fordsix and clifford performance. The problem with what you just provided is that the 200/250 is a "small block 6".. and the Aussie crossflow head is a modification to the 200/250, because the stock US head for that engine SUCKS ASS. (1v carbed, head and intake manifold are one piece) The 3.3 (200) I6 that was in the early Fox Mustang/Capri is not the same family as the "big block 6" truck engine, the 240/300. Also, only the 250 shares the small block bolt pattern. If I recall, the 250 is an older engine, and I'd be more likely to find a 200 than a 250. But at least in the case of the 200/250, I know there's a Fox-body K-member built just for it.

I even considered the possibility that some I6 fans have mentioned, of getting an extra pair of V6/V8 heads with the same bore spacing and hacking them together. (for the 200/250) In the end, though, I figure the 300 is what I want. Can already get EFI on it, it's the biggest I6 you can get from Ford, and it uses the 289/302/351W bellhousing.

EDIT: It was said somewhere that the crossflow mod for the small I6 is akin to putting Cleveland heads on a Windsor block.. just to give you a reference point.

Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)

Reply #6 – March 07, 2005, 07:50:26 PM

A buddy of mine had a '79 Mustang with a 300 in it, and it fit with no problems. The car was originally a 250, but he stuffed that 300 in using the stock I6 crossmember. I don't know what he did about the oil pan or mounts though. The car looked absolutely foolish with its Capri hood (stuck out about 2" past the grille) and baby blue paint, but you could not kill that engine.

Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)

Reply #7 – March 07, 2005, 07:54:51 PM

With seven main caps on it, I should hope it would be nearly indestructible. :p

Yeah, oil pan/mounts/crossmember is my main concern. Are you sure he used the I6 crossmember? I've been wondering quite a bit about that one.

I've been meaning to post to FTE to ask them more details about the 300, but I keep putting it off.

Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)

Reply #8 – March 07, 2005, 09:24:33 PM

Quote from: Bird351

I'm told a pair of smaller turbos vs. one large turbo will spool up quickly but run out of steam at high revs. Well, I'm not looking to build for high revs. I really wouldn't care if this engine never saw anything above 5000 RPM.

Don't listen to those people. As long as you design the system right, two turbos will work just fine. So will one. Seeing as you have and inline and want a highway cruiser, I would think one turbo would be the choice. The cost/fabrication/maintenance savings of a single more than offsets the small performance increase of the twin.

Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)

Reply #9 – March 07, 2005, 09:29:44 PM

Actually, I thought it would be somewhat "interesting" to try to get six exhaust pipes to one turbo. Figured one small one for every 3 pipes would be less of a hassle in that department.. but then there's the increase in intake plumbing..

One moderate-sized turbo.. two small ones.. whatever works.

Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)

Reply #10 – March 07, 2005, 09:58:52 PM

Two good books for turbocharger knowledge are Maximum Boost by Corky Bell, and Turbochargers by Hugh MacInnes.
I've found turbomustangs.com and the turbomustangs forums to have good info too. I don't think you'll find much info about turbo I-300s, but most of the turbo info isn't platform specific.
Turbocalc is a good program to visualize how your engine fits with different turbochargers. I found that several of the maps can be off by 5-10% though. I built my own spreadsheet to correct those errors, but it has never been vetted by an independent source.

Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)

Reply #11 – March 07, 2005, 09:59:31 PM

FTE is a great place and they know their I6 stuff. The 300 is an indestructable torque monster, sounds like it would be an awesome project.

Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)

Reply #12 – March 07, 2005, 09:59:50 PM

i thought about an 300 swap some time ago (along with numerous others) instead of following the 5.0 crowd into oblivion. i remember reading somewhere that they respond very well to bolt-ons and have torque for days. sounds like the ideal engine to me. someone makes a swap kit into fox mustangs, i'm sure it would work for the TBird. i just don't remember who. good luck on the swap! ^_^

JeremyB: i didn't know you were in Huntsville too. i must be blind. XD

Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)

Reply #13 – March 07, 2005, 10:16:43 PM

Quote from: Bird351

Actually, I thought it would be somewhat "interesting" to try to get six exhaust pipes to one turbo. Figured one small one for every 3 pipes would be less of a hassle in that department.. but then there's the increase in intake plumbing..

One moderate-sized turbo.. two small ones.. whatever works.

Don't wanna run it into the ground, but someone gotta start it. Also it's gonna be one of the better examples for a project like this. Anywho, I got off the phone with a friend, and had him verify that the supra was a twin turbo car from the factory. This setup did exactly what you are thinking, 3 pipes per turbo. Now a few of those cars owners "upgraded" to a single, larger, more efficient turbo, but as was mentioned, the manifold is changed out. So take from that what you will. If you wanna use the info as reference, I can pass your questions onto my supra friend, and pass his answers back to you. Just let me know!

Re: EFI 300 I6 plus twin turbos (long post)

Reply #14 – March 07, 2005, 10:24:05 PM

Thanks, but I can probably get much of the same info from the local friend of mine who helps me the most with car chit. He's also a big Supra fan. Anyway, I'll take your word that one can function just as well as two when set up properly. (don't say it, Crystal) :p

Like I said, whatever works. As long as it does what I want it to at lower RPMs.