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Technical => Engine Tech => Topic started by: 50tbrd88 on April 27, 2016, 09:18:07 PM

Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: 50tbrd88 on April 27, 2016, 09:18:07 PM
Well guys I recently sold a John Deere tractor project of mine and am contemplating using the proceeds to finally build the motor for my T-bird.  My 302 is getting really tired with nearly 200k on the bottom end.  Over the last year it has started using oil and seems to really be down on power.  I also sold my '07 Mustang GT so this and my junky '87 f-250 are my only real hobby now, lol.

What I'm looking for is something that will run on 93 octane pump gas, be reliable enough to take on road trips (power tour, etc), and put a smile on my face when I stab the gas.  I've been hoping to do this someday and have modified the car over the last 10+ years building it up in preparation of throwing more power at it (8.8 swap, control arms, sub frames, exhaust, etc.).

I know there are other forums that might focus more on engine builds, but I thought I'd start here as this is the first forum I ever really joined and have stayed active with through the years, so I feel like I can trust your opinions.

From what I've researched so far I'm thinking: 331 stroker with AFR 165 heads.  No idea on induction.  I'm thinking I could use my current BBK shorty headers and be OK.  I have no idea what to plan for on ignition stuff (do you really need MSD type stuff?) or fuel (I believe my fuel pump is 190lph, no idea if that's enough and what I'd need for injectors).  I'm still speed density as well so I'd have to figure going to MAF.

 Basically I want to get a game plan but really don't know where to even start as I've never done this before!

As far as the machine work, can anyone recommend someone in my area (southern IN)?  Overall budget would be max of $6k, as that's what I sold my other project for but I'd be happy with less. 

Thanks for any suggestions you all may have!
Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 27, 2016, 10:27:49 PM
Honestly if you are building a 331 skip the 165/170cc heads. They are too small for a 331. My buddy has a 331 in his Mustang. He has the following combo. Makes power across the board. I think you'd like it.

331
Trick Flow 190R heads
Holley Systemax intake
Ed Curtis cam
30lb injectors
75mm throttle body
80mm MAF
2.5 inch exhaust

That combo would put a big smile on your face :)
Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: ZondaC12 on April 28, 2016, 11:01:34 AM
^^That sounds pretty solid to me. You can only get so much bottom end torque out of 302 CI. Stroker is definitely solid.

I will say, either the blower car or the stick car (or both LOL) is going to have a 351W for its next motor. I need to gather more info but it sounds like with some creative tricks and K-member spacers, one can be made to fit under the stock hood. Which is a requirement for me. But for  cheap you get all that extra displacement and a block that can handle 700-800 hp.
Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 28, 2016, 03:25:55 PM
Quote from: ZondaC12;455043
I will say, either the blower car or the stick car (or both LOL) is going to have a 351W for its next motor. I need to gather more info but it sounds like with some creative tricks and K-member spacers, one can be made to fit under the stock hood. Which is a requirement for me. But for  cheap you get all that extra displacement and a block that can handle 700-800 hp.

The only issue with the 351W is you need a different front accessory dress. Other than that 408W FTMFW!

If I has $$$ I would do a Dart 363 build. It's just so  expensive and not in any way "budget", unless your budget is ~$11k. That's just the engine. Fortunately the transmission/driveline/rear axle/chassis/suspension on my Thunderbird could take it. Otherwise that figure would be more....
Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: 50tbrd88 on April 28, 2016, 05:36:02 PM
Anyone have suggestions as far as rotating assembly?  I don't think I need forged.  Do most people piece them together or just buy a "stroker kit" from eagle or scat or something?
Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: Haystack on April 28, 2016, 06:05:47 PM
I've heard that scat cranks balance a lot cheaper and need less machine work then eagle.

If it were me, I'd go 347 all the way. It costs the same, you can get the same rod ratio and you will make power at lower rpm's.

I'd also skip the afr165's unless you need emissions. Trickflow FAC are the same price or slightly cheaper, have more ptv clearance for a more radical can and can be cnc'd larger if you feel the need to upgrade in the future.
Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: 88Merc50 on April 28, 2016, 08:50:43 PM
im doing a budget build, found a 81,000 mile motor, replacing all bearings and using arp bottom end bolts, gear drive, gt40 heads and intake, not sure what cam yet, just a cheap daily driver build lol.
Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 28, 2016, 10:09:27 PM
With your motor being worn out an well built 302 will put a smile on our face.  Find a 5.0 Ford Explorer or Mercury Mountaineer motor (96 through early 2001) and start with that.  Typically about $500 to $1,000 and it should have GT40 iron heads on the 96 and the early 97 models from there they are GT40P heads.  Pull the motor apart and inspect the bearings, rings, and replace if necessary.  Re-ring the pistons, have a valve job done on the heads and replace the valve springs with the TFS kit (https://lmr.com/item/TFS-2500100/Trick-Flow-50l-302-Mustang-Valve-Springs-Upgrade-Kit).  Replace the oil pump, oil pump shaft, and timing chain for insurance reasons.  I would choose a good cam for the combo like the TFS Stage One or if you can swing it get an Ed Curtis setup (cam, springs, and timing chain).  So now you have a long block for about $2,000 if you bought the motor on the lower end of the scale and no machine work was needed.  Reused the upper and lower intakes and do the aire temp sensor relocation.  Again if you have the $$$ send the lower to TMoss (search the Corral for him) and have him port it to match the heads.  I think he used to charge $100 pluss shipping using your intake.  Reuse the Explorer 70mm thorttle body with the throttle linkage mod the has been dospoogeented all over the place.  So if all goes well you are into this motor for about $3,000 if you do most of the work yourself (no machine work like the heads) and you have about $3,500 left over to find a Mass Air harness, MAF, A9L, associated ducting, injectors (highly recommend 30lb/hr or 36lb/hr as my 306 hit a wall with my 24's), headers (BBK's will work), your accessory brackets and accessories, and maybe some elbow grease and paint.

I am sure I missed a few things but this has been done 100's of times on Mustangs so do a little research and you should have a good game plan.

I would definitely get a custom tune so plan on $500 for the chip and dyno time.  I have seen this combo hit well over 280 rwhp and if tuned right almost 300 rwhp.  My guess is your worn out motor is under 200 rwhp so this would be huge grin factor and it fits the budget.
Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: 50tbrd88 on April 29, 2016, 04:29:31 PM
Quote from: Haystack;455055
I've heard that scat cranks balance a lot cheaper and need less machine work then eagle.

If it were me, I'd go 347 all the way. It costs the same, you can get the same rod ratio and you will make power at lower rpm's.

I'd also skip the afr165's unless you need emissions. Trickflow FAC are the same price or slightly cheaper, have more ptv clearance for a more radical can and can be cnc'd larger if you feel the need to upgrade in the future.

I've always heard of oil consumption issues with a 347?  Not sure if that's 100% always the case though.  Would there be any more costs machine shop wise with the 347 vs 331?
Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: 50tbrd88 on April 29, 2016, 04:32:00 PM
Quote from: Aerocoupe;455062
With your motor being worn out an well built 302 will put a smile on our face.  Find a 5.0 Ford Explorer or Mercury Mountaineer motor (96 through early 2001) and start with that.  Typically about $500 to $1,000 and it should have GT40 iron heads on the 96 and the early 97 models from there they are GT40P heads.  Pull the motor apart and inspect the bearings, rings, and replace if necessary.  Re-ring the pistons, have a valve job done on the heads and replace the valve springs with the TFS kit (https://lmr.com/item/TFS-2500100/Trick-Flow-50l-302-Mustang-Valve-Springs-Upgrade-Kit).  Replace the oil pump, oil pump shaft, and timing chain for insurance reasons.  I would choose a good cam for the combo like the TFS Stage One or if you can swing it get an Ed Curtis setup (cam, springs, and timing chain).  So now you have a long block for about $2,000 if you bought the motor on the lower end of the scale and no machine work was needed.  Reused the upper and lower intakes and do the aire temp sensor relocation.  Again if you have the $$$ send the lower to TMoss (search the Corral for him) and have him port it to match the heads.  I think he used to charge $100 pluss shipping using your intake.  Reuse the Explorer 70mm thorttle body with the throttle linkage mod the has been dospoogeented all over the place.  So if all goes well you are into this motor for about $3,000 if you do most of the work yourself (no machine work like the heads) and you have about $3,500 left over to find a Mass Air harness, MAF, A9L, associated ducting, injectors (highly recommend 30lb/hr or 36lb/hr as my 306 hit a wall with my 24's), headers (BBK's will work), your accessory brackets and accessories, and maybe some elbow grease and paint.

I am sure I missed a few things but this has been done 100's of times on Mustangs so do a little research and you should have a good game plan.

I would definitely get a custom tune so plan on $500 for the chip and dyno time.  I have seen this combo hit well over 280 rwhp and if tuned right almost 300 rwhp.  My guess is your worn out motor is under 200 rwhp so this would be huge grin factor and it fits the budget.

Sounds like a very affordable way to go.  I'm just afraid that if I don't go ahead with a stroker and aluminum heads etc, I'll regret it down the road.  I'm not going to change things up every few years, this motor would be powering my car for many years (decades even) to come.

So is it unreasonable to think I can be in the $6k range for an aluminum headed 331?  Thanks for the insight fellas.
Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 29, 2016, 04:47:09 PM
I built my 331 on what I called a budget and spent right at $10K.

The oil consumption issue with the 347 was due to the wrist pin location on the pistons being in the oil ring groove.  Most companies have since addressed that issue to that is something of the past.  There are still some that complain of piston slap when the motor gets some miles on it so that is why I chose the 331.
Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: 50tbrd88 on April 30, 2016, 11:04:48 AM
Ok thanks.
Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: thunderjet302 on April 30, 2016, 04:31:16 PM
What ever you decide to do I would skip the iron GT40/GT40P heads and GT40 intake. I went that route and replaced both those pieces within a few years as it just wasn't enough. The Edelbrock Performer heads and Edelbrock Performer RPM intake are so much better it's like night and day. Based on track testing the engine gained around 50hp over the GT40P heads and GT40 intake that were on the car previously. Plus driveability is vastly improved. I can tell you from experience that you will not be happy with the iron GT40 heads and GT40 intake.
Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: 50tbrd88 on April 30, 2016, 04:58:46 PM
Ok good to know.  I am kind of overwhelmed right now as I read online about all the different combos out there.
Title: Contemplating motor build
Post by: Aerocoupe on April 30, 2016, 05:09:05 PM
My old 351W DOZZ headed and Cobra intaked 306 with a TMoss port job but down 289 rwhp. Being that an Explorer motor or Mountaineer motor would come with them it would be hard to justify buying a set of heads and intakes to gain any possible hp gain. I can tell you I had a very nice cam in that motor and it would pull the 6,000 rpm chip through the gears in a very hasty manner. So I finally decided to up the combo and went to a set of Edelbrock Performer heads and Edelbrock Performer RPM II upper and lower and gained a whopping 19 hp with the 306.  Now this was done as I knew I was going to a stroker down the road.  I have not dyno'd the 331 but let's just say there is simply no replacement for cubic displacement.

Everyone wants to know if the 331 was worth the additional $$$ over a built 306. Kind of a loaded question but for me it comes down to cubic dollars. If you have a limited budge then the answer is no being that there are still Explorer motors out there that make a built 302 just too  economical. If I was starting from scratch with a bare 302W block and the funds were there for a stroker then I would build a 331 or 347 hands down. I built the 331 for longevity as it has a better rod angle than the 347 but if your not going to drive a car much build a 347.
Title: Re: Contemplating motor build
Post by: 50tbrd88 on February 04, 2021, 05:09:01 PM
Dead thread resurrection warning!

I’ve finally got to the point I’m going to have to do a rebuild on my original 200k mile 5.0.  It’s been using more oil and developed a coolant leak around the timing cover, so I decided to just pull and and slowly rebuild it over the next several months.  I’d like to get it reliable, as I do like to take this car on long trips to things like the Hot Rod Power Tour (if it even happens this year, thanks COVID).

Anyway, I think I’ve dialed back the idea of doing a stroker.  I don’t race the car, it’s mainly a fun cruiser at this point.  I just want something reliable that has decent power so I can half way keep up with all my buddies who have newer ‘Vettes and Mustangs.  In the past my car has had its tongue hanging out trying to keep up on road trips.  Lol.

Here’s my plan and I am open to suggestions;

Stock block bored .30
Stock crank, stock rods
Pistons??  Open to suggestions!  I’d like to see somewhere around 10.5:1
Systemax II intake
70mm throttle body
Trick flow top end kit;  https://www.trickflow.com/parts/tfs-k525-432-370
Use my current BBK 1 5/8” shorty headers
I have a 190 Lph fuel pump (enough?) and a bbk fpr
30 lbs injectors

As far as the computer, I am really leaning towards going mega or micro squirt instead of going MAF/a stock computer.  I like the idea of tuning it myself (always wanted to learn) and being able to have lots of room for upgrades down the road.  I could see myself eventually building a 347 or something 351w based someday when I have more of a flexible budget to work with.

I’ve been preparing the car for more HP for years so I shouldn’t need to do anything else “supporting mod”-wise.  Cooling, brakes, exhaust, suspension, trans, rear ended, etc should all be covered!   Looking forward to seeing what you guys think!

Title: Re: Contemplating motor build
Post by: Aerocoupe on February 04, 2021, 05:29:44 PM
So when you take all the parts to a machine shop they will most likely have to resize the rod ends, turn the crank on the rods and mains, and hopefully you are going to have them press in new rod bolts and get new main bolts or studs.  Hopefully they will line hone the block and torque plate when cleaning the cylinders up. The they will assemble the rotating assembly with your new pistons and balance it.

Go look at a 331 or 347 rotating assembly that your stock flex plate or fly wheel will bolt to and tell me how much you are saving by NOT ??? going with a striker short block.

Sure it will not perform like it would with a better cam and induction system but you can always put a cam in it now for the better induction and it will run better than a 0.030” over 302. Save yourself the headache and just stroke it now with a game plan to upgrade the induction later. I did it with my 93 Coupe and do not regret it.

Title: Re: Contemplating motor build
Post by: 50tbrd88 on February 04, 2021, 07:11:07 PM
So when you take all the parts to a machine shop they will most likely have to resize the rod ends, turn the crank on the rods and mains, and hopefully you are going to have them press in new rod bolts and get new main bolts or studs.  Hopefully they will line hone the block and torque plate when cleaning the cylinders up. The they will assemble the rotating assembly with your new pistons and balance it.

Go look at a 331 or 347 rotating assembly that your stock flex plate or fly wheel will bolt to and tell me how much you are saving by NOT ??? going with a striker short block.

Sure it will not perform like it would with a better cam and induction system but you can always put a cam in it now for the better induction and it will run better than a 0.030” over 302. Save yourself the headache and just stroke it now with a game plan to upgrade the induction later. I did it with my 93 Coupe and do not regret it.


My thought process was “A 306 with really good induction would outperform a stroked engine with average induction”.  I can’t afford to do both right now.  I figured I could build something more serious later on and swap the top end over onto.  I have an old tired ‘87 truck with a 302 my T-bird original short block would then go into. 

Another thought I’d had was that if I stroke it, would I not have to most likely change to 0 internal balance or 28 oz imbalance (meaning aftermarket flywheel and balancer) to make it easier/more cost effective to balance?  That was always my understanding anyways.  Again, I’m no expert just been around and listened to other dudes that have done this stuff.  I will be getting a new balancer most likely anyway.  Clutch and flywheel probably don’t have 5,000 miles on them.

We have a really good machine shop nearby, they did the machine work and put the bottom end together on the sbc in my Chevelle last winter, that I will be talking with and using for this build as well.   They build everything from stock to sprint car motors.   It’s hard to find a good small town machine shop these days!
Title: Re: Contemplating motor build
Post by: Aerocoupe on February 04, 2021, 08:04:11 PM
My 331 is a 50oz imbalance and builds 462 fwhp.