Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Technical => Engine Swapping => Topic started by: Sick88Tbird on June 02, 2009, 03:24:10 PM

Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 02, 2009, 03:24:10 PM
Spent Saturday night pulling the old engine, only took about 3 1/2 hours from start to finish.  We got the 351W in on Sunday, and after wrestling the T-5 back into place around 5:30-6pm I was spent...that and the front sump of the pan washiznitting the front sway bar...bad.  Monday morning, I unbolted the sway bar brackets and let it hang.  I was then able lift the T-5 high enough to put the crossmember back under.

It's actually a pretty straight forward swap, especially if keeping EFI.  My 351 has a Crane Cam, Powermax 2030 grind, part # 444232.  It's got .448/.464" lift and 268*/276* duration.  I'm running ported GT-40 irons(milled down to 59.2cc), BBK shorty 351W headers, a truck/van lower intake which has been heavily ported, a BC Broncos intake adapter(ported also), and a stock HO upper plenum...I'm running 19lb injectors and a DA1 ECM. 

The car runs amazingly nice, absolutely zero drivability issues...a slight lope through the exhaust and a little rich when initially toe'ing into the throttle.  I haven't hammered on it yet, but did make a short full throttle run in 2nd gear from 20-45mph...even with the 2.73 rear gears, it happened QUICK.  The thing pulls like a freight train at lower RPM...I'm sure that's all thanks to a super restricted intake and exhaust...unfortunately, that's what'll keep this set-up from reaching it's full potential past 3500. 

I don't NEED a tune, but it's probably not a good idea to try runnning past 3500 full throttle without it...I have a set of 24lb injectors on the way and I'd like to save up to get a good safe tune on it. 

Oh, and the stock hood fits fine with the addition of washers between the hinges and hood, all wiring fit nicely, hoses fit pretty well, but the heater core hoses took a good bit of tpuppies to get right...I'll have to try and get some pics together.

-Don :burnout:
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: V8Demon on June 02, 2009, 04:24:50 PM
Quote
the stock hood fits fine with the addition of washers between the hinges and hood

Hmm.  If you could include a pic of this I would appreciate it!
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: vinnietbird on June 02, 2009, 04:25:09 PM
Nice work !! Pics would be great.I am still thinking about a 5.8 swap.I'm just not sure.Probably not until I get another daily driver.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 02, 2009, 07:40:27 PM
The washers raise the back of the hood about 1/2"-3/4"...I may be removing some as there is plenty of clearance as-is...I do need to get pictures...you can all get a chuckle out of the stock SO beauty plate on the HO upper...lol.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 03, 2009, 12:15:09 PM
I was having some problems early last night keeping it cool...with a 180* t-stat, it would idle around 190-195* with the E-fan running continuously...any load would cause the temp to rise up to about 210* and after letting it idle, it would come back down to about 195*....I flushed the coolant, didn't do much good, but while doing that, I did notice my fan controller was going south on me...I swapped the stock clutch fan back on and it'll run 190*-195* all day long, even with a little abuse thrown in the mix.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Bob on June 03, 2009, 12:37:55 PM
Quote from: Sick88Tbird;275693
I was having some problems early last night keeping it cool...with a 180* t-stat, it would idle around 190-195* with the E-fan running continuously...any load would cause the temp to rise up to about 210* and after letting it idle, it would come back down to about 195*....I flushed the coolant, didn't do much good, but while doing that, I did notice my fan controller was going south on me...I swapped the stock clutch fan back on and it'll run 190*-195* all day long, even with a little abuse thrown in the mix.


I use to keep a clutch fan and shroud in my trunk of the old tbird. Came in handy one day :)
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: thunderjet302 on June 03, 2009, 06:27:35 PM
I've got a 5.0 Mustang Police Interceptor fan clutch on mine. Works fine and with the 180* t-stat it runs about 190*-195* even in traffic with the A/C on :D
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 03, 2009, 08:58:06 PM
Quote from: Bob;275697
I use to keep a clutch fan and shroud in my trunk of the old tbird. Came in handy one day :)


That's exactly where mine was...lol.  I'm gonna try to get some pics up this weekend if I can get one of my buddies to remember his digital camera...

I really gotta pull a couple plugs and see how they look, I think it's running pretty rich...that was kinda to be expected at lower RPM's...I'm still goin' nuts trying to find my fuel pressure gauge, I just had it!

I've got the timing set to a conservative 6-7* base and I'm running 89 octane in it...pings just a little if you goose the throttle hard, but rollin' into the throttle, it just plain goes...maybe I should loosen some rockers and tell people I did a spoogemins swap! lol, j/k

I'm gonna try to see about getting a cheesey A/F gauge because a wideband is currrently out of my price range...I know it's not going to be very accurate, but hopefully it'll at least give me an idea.  I'll try to keep updates coming.

-Don
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Masejoer on June 04, 2009, 01:51:54 AM
Thread needs pictures!
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 04, 2009, 09:07:34 AM
Quote from: Seek;275803
Thread needs pictures!


Fer s!!! :hick:
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: badbird84 on June 04, 2009, 09:38:49 AM
What oil pan did you use. We did a 351 swap last summer and had clearance issues with a van/4X4 oil pan. Replaced it with a Ford Motorsports pan and all was right.
Roger
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: dominator on June 04, 2009, 12:19:38 PM
Sounds really lean,the 19lb injectors are not near enough.
Should be at least 24lb.
You upper intake is very restrictive for a 351 as well.
It should not ping at 6-7deg timing,your timing should be up around 10 base and 13-14 for performance.
More than likely your leaning it out,therefore it's running hot and pinging(high combustion temps).
Also what fuel pump are you running,the stock bird pump is not even sufficent for an HO let alone a 351.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: 83-88T-Bird Guy on June 04, 2009, 12:34:18 PM
Quote from: Sick88Tbird;275590


Oh, and the stock hood fits fine with the addition of washers between the hinges and hood.  :burnout:


Is your hood gap more than ours? see pic...

I just loosened up the hinge bolts at the fender and pulled up on the hinge and re-tightened.

(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s3/83-88T-BirdGuy/GrayBirdatpark0118.jpg)
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: 83-88T-Bird Guy on June 04, 2009, 12:36:14 PM
Quote from: badbird84;275835
What oil pan did you use. We did a 351 swap last summer and had clearance issues with a van/4X4 oil pan. Replaced it with a Ford Motorsports pan and all was right.
Roger


Roger: That van pan is a center sump. Crown Vics were the only cars with the rear sump 351w (same as Ford Racing)
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: tireshredder on June 04, 2009, 04:48:16 PM
Quick question, why didn't you go with Mass Air?  Wouldn't that be able to adapt to the displacement change alot better than the SD?
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Masejoer on June 04, 2009, 08:51:19 PM
Quote from: tireshredder;275895
Quick question, why didn't you go with Mass Air?  Wouldn't that be able to adapt to the displacement change alot better than the SD?


After learning how the ECU's work, I'd suggest a tune on either setup. Mass air would likely do a bit better, especially in open loop/wot but they both would leave quite a bit on a table without a custom tune.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 04, 2009, 10:18:27 PM
Dominator- I have a Walbro 190lph pump, Holley AFPR (set to 48 psi with vac disconnected...or at least I think that's what it was at on my old cougar, used to have a rail mounted gauge on that car).  I have around 9.3:1 C/R on 89 octane, it has yet to ping under a load.  When hammering the throttle I think it goes lean initially then goes pig fat rich...my buddy said he saw a little black smoke once I got into it a little.  I know the intake is restrictive, but a combination of a shoe-string budget + time constraints + poor availability of lightning lower intakes = $100 BC Broncos adapter

Badbird- went with the FRPP 351W pan kit...I knew nothing else would work.

T-bird guy- it's not nearly as high as yours...after putting the washers in I thought, "why didn't I just loosen the hinges and pull them up?" lol

I've always been a big advocate of Speed Density because everybody else immediately jumps on the Mass Air bandwagon...I know of guys running plenty fast with SD...it just takes money(which I don't have).  I think I may be jumping on the Mass Air bandwagon if I can find an ECU cheap enough, at least I know that way I can get a lot closer than what I am already.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Innes on June 04, 2009, 10:47:16 PM
nice job wish i did a 351
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 04, 2009, 10:51:39 PM
Just got done cruising through corral forums lookin for a MAF ecu...nothing less than $100 firm for something you don't even know works...I decided to check AutoZone's website...reman, 1yr warranty...97.99, all their ecu's have a core charge except for the one I'm looking for, Cardone #78-5611 for 5.0 A/T, federal emissions...and if they try to screw me, I'll bitch my ass off until I get what I want + a discount...I used to work for that stupid conglomeration...complain and you get free .

Even if it did have a core charge, people there are so stupid, most wouldn't know the difference in the ecu's anyway...somebody once returned a brick in a reman caliper box and said it was a new return and they didn't need it.  Kinda hard for me to try and sell an effing brick for $80....idiots...
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: BEARMAX on June 04, 2009, 10:55:21 PM
i used the ford racing pan and it also hit my sway bar so i removed the sway bar lol...and its been the way for 5 years now...no problems.but i want it back so im gona try to shim it down
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: tireshredder on June 04, 2009, 11:29:32 PM
I went to OReilly's and their ECUs were about $100 with a limited lifetime warranty, and they said they take an old ECU that I don't even know what it is.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 05, 2009, 05:30:00 PM
I ordered that ECU today from my local AutoZone...they confirmed no core and I'll have it tomorrow...hopefully I can go to the local yard on Sunday and try to scout out a MN-12 MAF and pirate as much of the harness as possible (without anyone knowing...lol)...I think I remember somebody saying the 5.0 MN-12 MAF sensor was 70mm...but that could be misinformation.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Innes on June 06, 2009, 06:54:43 AM
Quote from: Sick88Tbird;276073
I ordered that ECU today from my local AutoZone...they confirmed no core and I'll have it tomorrow...hopefully I can go to the local yard on Sunday and try to scout out a MN-12 MAF and pirate as much of the harness as possible (without anyone knowing...lol)...I think I remember somebody saying the 5.0 MN-12 MAF sensor was 70mm...but that could be misinformation.


i believe its the 96 and up 4.6  but not sure.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 07, 2009, 05:21:42 PM
Well I got an early start today...I went to the only U-pull it open and picked up a MAF from an early MN-12 3.8 Cougar...Part # F1ZF...same as a '91 'Stang 5.0....all the other units(5.0 MN12, mark 8, crown vic) were all LONG gone...harness and all.  Picked up some extra wire and more solder and went home for fun times...

Reman A9P with 1yr warr.- $97.99
F1ZF mass air meter/harness- $14.50
stupid ricer cone type air filter- $24.99

A pretty cheap MAF swap if you ask me...I did not have the proper intake hoses and that posed a bit of a problem...I did have an extra SD intake hose, so I cut it after the 90* bend from the throttle body, right were the ridges start, slipped on another factory clamp and clamped the MAF sensor in place...went to AutoZone to pick up a piece of pipe and some couplers to make it reach my air box on the cheap...turns out all their junk is 3" and I needed 3.5"...I found a cheesey Spectre cone filter with inserts so it would fit 3", 3.5" and 4"....got home, right on the end of the MAF it went and out came the air box lid and filter.

It runs SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better now.  It runs as smooth as a factory mass air 5.0.  I made a quick blast through 4th gear, shifting at 4k rpm....the time to shift came up a LOT quicker than I expected....and with 2.73 rear gears! lol.

Hopefully I can save up and get a proper CAI within the next 3 weeks....this hot-air intake (or "short-ram" in the Honda world, lmao) looks like ...it does the job, but looks like ...lol.  I know this thread will probably be dead until I get some pics up...just too busy to get EVERYTHING done today.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Masejoer on June 07, 2009, 05:29:03 PM
K&N filter design in itself breathes better than paper by filtering much more poorly. Stick this filter where you can get grime thrown onto it from the belt, you are just throwing dirt straight into the motor. I'd just use the factory intake, chop it up into pieces, and tape it up to make it work temporarily. The last thing you want is dirt scratching up the inside of your engine.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 07, 2009, 05:37:51 PM
#1- it's not a K&N filter
#2- the belt isn't going to throw anything at it...the filter doesn't come out past the alternator
#3- did you see the "temporary" part?

This isn't my first rodeo...if you want to shiznit all over somebody, please do it else where...K&N's flow more air while filtering just about as good as a paper filter due to the difference in filter media...over-oiling is the big issue with K&N filters and that's not the filter's fault.

Thanks anyway,
Don
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 09, 2009, 05:41:42 PM
After driving it around for a few days, I can see why everybody jumps right on the MAF band-wagon...now I just gotta let more air into this thing!...and I'm regretting not putting more cam in it.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: pegasus on June 09, 2009, 05:50:38 PM
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l192/jrzgrl0520/e0c585b3.jpg)
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: pegasus on June 09, 2009, 05:51:21 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/creepyrat/lee.jpg)
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Masejoer on June 09, 2009, 08:42:54 PM
Quote from: Sick88Tbird;276315
#1- it's not a K&N filter
#2- the belt isn't going to throw anything at it...the filter doesn't come out past the alternator
#3- did you see the "temporary" part?

This isn't my first rodeo...if you want to shiznit all over somebody, please do it else where...K&N's flow more air while filtering just about as good as a paper filter due to the difference in filter media...over-oiling is the big issue with K&N filters and that's not the filter's fault.


I'm not trying to be condescending in any way an I apologize if it came across that way. There are tests everywhere that show both the improved airflow, along with the lack of filtration from filters other than paper (the same types of independent tests of oil filters and oil buttstuffysis information - very scientific tests done by some of them). Paper flows slightly worse since it filters the incoming air more - simple physics. Anyways, I was just mentioning that you could ignore this "cheesey Spectre cone filter" altogether and get both better filtering and a better intake setup by sticking with your stock parts - no need to waste money.

I would give you dozens of links to tests done by people other than corporate magazines but I think that would get this thread off topic. I say just stick the stock intake back on with a modified intake tube - help protect your motor. The stock intake isn't really a restriction anyways and you don't want a smooth intake tube, as one would think.

Last note, MAF does give you more learning capability beyond what SD's tables and functions do. It also doesn't have restrictions of being reliant  on vacuum due to it measuring air mass being sucked in. You will be leaving a good amount of power on the table with a 351 on a stock ECU though - when money permits, I'd recommend getting a tune once your motor's completely done.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 10, 2009, 12:01:06 AM
I appreciate the apology, let's chalk it up to the internet. I apologize for responding like an a-hole...lol.

I really couldn't do anything with the stock intake duct work...I tried, not even close...well it did not seal behind the MAF and ran a little funky...so to avoid taping it up, I just picked up that filter as a "get-me-by" until I can afford a CAI...everybody has a very strong opinion on K&N's one way or the other...and there are a million "scientific" tests to prove them good or bad.  I know I've used them for over 5yrs...the same filter in fact...two engines were pulled apart(one crank failure, one part out) and never once did I see any evidence of debris making it past the filter.

I do plan on having it tuned, once I replace the intake with a unit that flows SIGNIFICANTLY better and after losing the tailpipes...basically after I can get a good, solid, total combination.  I still have quite a bit of work ahead of me.

BTW, it's got enough balls to dog an '08 VW GTi...he had a bit of a run on me and I had already shifted to 2nd...lugged it from 2k rpm and slowly walked him...those things are solid 14.7-14.8 cars...it's a good start I suppose.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Masejoer on June 10, 2009, 12:24:08 AM
Quote from: Sick88Tbird;276773
BTW, it's got enough balls to dog an '08 VW GTi...he had a bit of a run on me and I had already shifted to 2nd...lugged it from 2k rpm and slowly walked him...those things are solid 14.7-14.8 cars...it's a good start I suppose.

Hmmm...you've got quite a bit of part matching to go then as that's down at 302 bolton power levels. I'm sure both those heads and intake are restricting you severely, the intake mainly as it flows poorly. You already know that though. It must make a hell of a lot of torque though, up to about the same point the stock SO 5.0 begins to drop off :p

I can't see the gt40, ported or not, helping you get up to 5k on a 351. I'm not sure that cam will ever shine in any way with those heads. It's all down to the $$$ though! Decent intake/exhaust and it should still take care of most any car on the road.

With it as it is, I wouldn't be surprised if you're near having fuel delivery problems with the 19lb injectors. I figure stock HO 225hp, gt40 heads gets them up to 240, ported lower 250, high rpm cam 270, 351 block with gt40 porting, add 15% on top and you're at 310-320 at the crank. Depending on part matching, plus or minus a few but that's approaching full duty cycle on the 19lb's, especially if they aren't new. Depending on your goals, 24 may work, else jump to 30 if plans are 350+ rwhp. May as well do it once. It won't run as well as it does now though unless you get it tuned afterwards - "calibrated" MAF sensors don't work as well. Edit: Exhaust is in there somewhere...I never had a before/after check personally on this. I've used all the other parts though. The exhaust was just there when I dropped motor 2 in.

Lastly, I will add that by adding a second filter after the first air filter, while more restrictive, will show exactly how much dirt is getting past the filter. We know there will be a negligible amount of oil that will always get pulled in so it is hard to compare but the k&n's have always shown to filter more poorly than stock flat paper filters. They flow pretty evenly when the paper is clean. I bought a "CAI" as it came with MAF and injectors but don't use it due to not wanting any of the crud outside the motor on the inside. I also spent a year building the  thing (#2 after the first one's block was cracked) so I only do the best for my baby :p Don't have any problems losing traction as it is and runs smooth so I want to keep it that way as long as I can. That or get a Dart shortblock as I don't feel safe with the stock ones...
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Haystack on June 10, 2009, 12:28:36 AM
Pics or it didn't happen.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Masejoer on June 10, 2009, 01:32:03 AM
I found the picture! :p
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Bob on June 10, 2009, 06:47:59 AM
Looks good, for the mass air tube get another stock SD one keep it full
Length and stick the mass air meter on the end, than goto home depot and buy a 90* rubber elbow that will fit the filter end and the mass air meter and mount your filter in the fender

That's how mine is untill I can buy an Anderson ford motorsport setup. I look for a pick or look in my thread
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 10, 2009, 07:47:13 AM
Quote from: Seek;276793
I found the picture! :p


no, no, no, but it doesn't look too far off...lmao.  As for the heads, heavily ported E7's can be worth 30hp on a 5.0...GT40's (not P's) when heavily ported can support much more...I know the intake is choking me, falls off at about 4k...I know the injectors will be cutting it close if not already...I got a set of 24's off of Vinnietbird.  The operating range on the cam is 1400-5200, I have no reason to twist a 351 too high...although I should have just planned on MAF to begin with and went a little more agressive.  The intake is definitely what's killing me on horsepower...but I think it's helping me make my 1.21 giga-watts of torque...lol.  I can afford to trade some torque for more power...when I happen to stumble upon $700, I'd like to toss a TFS 351R intake on it(not the box style).

Time and money...the time I have, the money I do not.
Title: Friggin' pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 10, 2009, 09:34:13 AM
With hood raised...I think I may be able to let it down some, but it's not too bad as is.
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/Sick88Tbird/DSC01018.jpg)

Basic engine bay shot, see junky temporary hot air intake? lol
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/Sick88Tbird/DSC01019.jpg)

BC Broncos intake adapter, you can just barely see it.
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/Sick88Tbird/DSC01020.jpg)

BBK's!!!
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/Sick88Tbird/DSC01024.jpg)

Stamped steel valve cover...allows me to still have a PCV valve and a mile of clearance to my booster(obvious exaggeration).
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/Sick88Tbird/DSC01023.jpg)

A shot across the fenders to show intake/TB height...it looks taller than it is, it fits under the hood.
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c188/Sick88Tbird/DSC01022.jpg)

Happy?  lol.  I have an exhaust clip too, I'll post a link to that later on.

-Don
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: thunderjet302 on June 10, 2009, 06:47:08 PM
Well that 5.0 intake plate will fool some people. Just say it's a stock 5.0 when you bet 'em ;)
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: 86XR7project on June 10, 2009, 06:53:10 PM
Speaking of engine cleaners, dude go buy a bottle of Simple Green spray it on and hose it off 15 min later. Trust me.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 10, 2009, 08:48:25 PM
The long block IS clean, all freshly painted black before it went in...lol.

thunderjet302- I planned on it! lol

As for the exhaust clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu7fqnA_i7M
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Live Fast on June 10, 2009, 09:02:45 PM
Quote from: 86XR7project;276888
Speaking of engine cleaners, dude go buy a bottle of Simple Green spray it on and hose it off 15 min later. Trust me.


Man you really stand behind that stuff huh? lol
Just read on another thread where you said something about it.

Think i'll get me a bottle tomorrow! :D
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: bike70ride on June 11, 2009, 11:52:01 AM
It does work VERY well, and it's biodegradable :banana:  Not that I'm a tre-hugger or anything...it's just nice not to kill your grass when you wash it down the driveway and into the storm sewers (usually untreated water).
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 12, 2009, 08:38:44 PM
I'm starting to think I should've just posted the pics up in the User Rides section...at least people would look at them there...lol.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Tbird232ci on June 12, 2009, 09:24:53 PM
I don't know about your budget but nab a cold air intake off of ebay, and re-use your filter. I've used that intake on 3 different cars, and it works well enough with a decent filter. It will at least get you into the fenderwell.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 13, 2009, 05:56:11 PM
Yeah, anything to get it away from pulling super heated air in...unfortunately, I can't afford to spend a dime on it because I have to save up to move down south.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: V8Demon on June 13, 2009, 06:04:47 PM
Quote
Yeah, anything to get it away from pulling super heated air in


[SIZE="1"]*cough cough*[/SIZE]  Turbo Coupe hood  [SIZE="1"]*cough cough*[/SIZE]
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 13, 2009, 06:23:59 PM
I have a TC hood, but I'd have to hack it all up to make it even come close to clearing....it used to hit the top A/C bracket on the driver side scoop...now with the same accessory drive...even if I took the scoops out and cut the scoop brackets off....but that'd look terrible...lol.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: V8Demon on June 13, 2009, 07:54:38 PM
Really?  Mine came close, but NEVER hit when I had A/C.... 

Interestingly enough, a 302 block with  a 1 3/8" spacer and a Trick Flow manifold clears :hick:
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Haystack on June 13, 2009, 09:22:52 PM
I had no issues with the TC hood on my 86 cougar near the intake. The ac bracket lines up perfectally with the lowest part of the scoop. If your motor mounts are bad or worn out, when you rev it it will bust the scoop right out.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Thunder Chicken on June 13, 2009, 09:40:41 PM
Now you've got me wishing I'd done the 351 thing. Unfortunately it came down to T-5 swap or 351, and I chose the T-5. I had a perfectly good (in fact, it was near mint inside) roller 351 that I was gonna use, but instead I sold it to buy the T5 swap stuff. Oh well, the T-5 came with an HO intake and 19-lb injectors, and I've got some E7's and a DA1 on the bench, so once I scrounge up an HO cam I'll at least be able to upgrade my lowly SO to HO spec...

I'd never even heard of the Bronco adapter thingy, else I may have considered the T5 AND the 351. It was the cost of a 351 intake that was my chief concern. I had always wondered why nobody made a 351 lower that was compatible with the HO upper, but I guess the adapter thing takes care of that...

*EDIT* Oh, and about TC hood clearance: I had to remove the top A/C bracket from mine (stock SO 5.0 with stock engine mounts). When I had the hood on without the scoops you could look into the driver's side hole and see that the top bracket would definitely have hit the scoop, had the scoop been installed. I've never bothered checking to see if the Chuck mounts lowered it any.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: V8Demon on June 13, 2009, 10:14:35 PM
Quote
351 lower that was compatible with the HO upper, but I guess the adapter thing takes care of that...

Aftermarket vendors make 5.0 type intakes that will mate to a 351, but you're gonna pay.....
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 13, 2009, 11:41:24 PM
thunder chicken- the price of a 351W fuelie intake really slowed this project down...I had just cut apart the truck upper and mocked up a box style plenum and had some of the materials cut...then I stumbled upon the $100 BC Broncos adapter...saved a lot of time.  I have no problem building a box style intake out of any OE upper, I've done it plenty of times before...It just takes more time now because I don't have access to a nice heli-arc welder(often referred to as TIG- same machine, significantly different settings).

The intake clearance wasn't the issue, as you said it was the AC bracket...with Chuck's mounts it was that bad, probably could have just cut down the stud on the scoop bracket...with the stock mounts, it was STUPID.

V8Demon- did you have a bird/cougar FEAD or a mustang FEAD?  There is a pretty big difference between the two from what I've seen.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: V8Demon on June 13, 2009, 11:54:10 PM
When I had the A/C, all the bracketry was standard Catbird equipment AFAIK.  I ditched the A/C and swapped to a Mustang P/S bracket and the Ford A/C eliminator kit. 

I've never really compared the A/C brackets between the 2.  I would assume that the Mustang one would sit lower for the needed hood clearance -- if there is a difference between the brackets; again I don't know.  I know for a fact if I dropped my motor in a Stang, it would need a cowl hood due to the intake spacer....
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 13, 2009, 11:58:54 PM
Yeah, I think the fox mustangs have a little lower hood line...on the mustang FEAD, the p/s pump is placed a little lower and much further outboard and the A/C compressor is dropped a bit.

I'm still trying to figure out why everybody was saying a smaller booster was necessary...again, possibly a mustang only thing?
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Crash225 on June 14, 2009, 12:01:29 AM
Thanks for the inspiration Don. You guys don't mess around. Lit a fire under my butt to get my car done. Just doing the Mach 1 springs for now. The 351 will have to wait a bit ;)
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 14, 2009, 08:24:23 AM
I think it was a great job, gives lots of info for the would be swappers...

Interesting about the TC hood inserts with a 5.0(no doubt a 351 would have issues), my A/C bracket just barely touched the D/S insert... I trimmed the bracket to be sure there wasn't a problem...

(http://mysite.verizon.net/turbocoupe50/kenmoregt40.jpg)
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 14, 2009, 11:30:52 AM
Yeah, I mowed my bracket down too on my old 'Bird...the disappointing part of it was I had molded my scoops into the hood and learned the hard way after it started cracking the skim coat of filler...I love the TC hood, but hate the seams around the scoops.

Hey Crash, you'll get it done, just pace yourself man....apparently some people took notice of our work that weekend...had a guy knock on my door the other night asking if I could put a reman 351M in his '80 F-250...lol.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Masejoer on June 14, 2009, 11:36:59 AM
I didn't realize that actually was enough hood clearance. Looks like I should be looking for a roller 351 shortblock! How much heavier is the 351 rotating assembly than the 302(347), anyone know?
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 14, 2009, 01:43:49 PM
Quote from: Seek;277671
How much heavier is the 351 rotating assembly than the 302(347), anyone know?


I dunno exactly but the main journals on a 351W are huge, 3" vs 2.25"...
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 14, 2009, 03:34:15 PM
I'm thinking it's an easy 75-100lbs heavier than a 5.0.  Doing a 351 swap isn't really that bad at all...but the price of things tends to creep up on you if you're not prepared...all in all, not too bad and an excellent end result...just wondering how long the T-5 will live behind it...lol.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Masejoer on June 14, 2009, 03:41:11 PM
Quote from: Sick88Tbird;277696
I'm thinking it's an easy 75-100lbs heavier than a 5.0.  Doing a 351 swap isn't really that bad at all...but the price of things tends to creep up on you if you're not prepared...all in all, not too bad and an excellent end result...just wondering how long the T-5 will live behind it...lol.


The entire swap is heavier, yes, but much of that is in the block. The rotating assembly is a different matter, in how the motor spins.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Thunder Chicken on June 14, 2009, 03:45:11 PM
Quote from: Sick88Tbird;277696
...just wondering how long the T-5 will live behind it...lol.

That was another factor in my decision. The car was getting a T5 come hell or high water, and I was concerned the tranny wouldn't live behind a 351...
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 14, 2009, 04:10:51 PM
As long as I don't beat the hell out of it, the T5 should live an okay life...but that's easier said than done.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: V8Demon on June 14, 2009, 08:00:35 PM
Quote from: Thunder Chicken;277700
That was another factor in my decision. The car was getting a T5 come hell or high water, and I was concerned the tranny wouldn't live behind a 351...


They have a hard enough time living behind 302's....
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 14, 2009, 08:31:21 PM
Quote from: V8Demon;277742
They have a hard enough time living behind 302's....


So do stock AOD's.  The options are spend a bunch of money on a built AOD or spend a bunch of money on a TKO 500.  That's if it's to live a long life behind a 351.  BTW, I don't think my 7.5 is very happy...I'll have to swap in that fresh 8.8 with 3.73's I guess.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: wnt2gofst on June 14, 2009, 09:00:33 PM
go get a c6 out of a ford truck with a s.b. and put a shift kit in, it that will hold anything you throw at it. that will hold ya over till you have the money for the tko
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 15, 2009, 05:39:28 PM
The C6 is stupid heavy and takes up a lot of real estate...that and the fact it has no OD...the T-5 should be okay for now.

As long as I don't do too much of this ---> :burnout:

-Don
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on June 15, 2009, 05:58:49 PM
Quote from: Sick88Tbird;277890
The C6 is stupid heavy and takes up a lot of real estate...

X2


Actually 1st & 2nd are fairly stout in a T5(but it's fairly easy to tear up the syncros and destroy the mating teeth for the blocking rings), it's 3rd that's a POS...
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: jcassity on June 17, 2009, 02:10:17 AM
tom
are supercoupe aod's getting harder to find?  I think thats my final choice for the white coug,, to include the input shaft upgrade.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 19, 2009, 06:01:06 PM
Ran the first full tank of gas through....and with very little abuse, I was able to average 14.5 mpg...before the 351 swap I was averaging around 16.5mpg...I do a lot of stop and go driving and live close to work.

I don't think the reason for the decreased fuel economy is simply just "a larger engine", I think it's a combination of a junky HO intake choking it off and 1 7/8" tailpipes causing the engine to work hard just to pump air through.  Wish I had money for bigger tailpipes...lol.  I would just cut them off, but I know it's going to get much louder both inside and out.  Maybe I'll put the pro-chamber back on then cut the tails off and see what happens.  2 1/2" all the way through the back of the glass pack then BOOM, restrictive tails...lol.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Masejoer on June 19, 2009, 08:44:43 PM
Besides the idle only going so low (625 rpm's minimum, more fuel at closed throttle due to more displacement) and heavier rotating assembly, there isn't much more that would affect overall economy besides the right foot. I would think that with enough money for a lighter and better balanced setup, you could actually get the same economy as the stock 302. Tweak the idle to 535 rpm's or so and closed throttle would be the same, all else equal.

Glad it sounds like it's all running well.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 19, 2009, 09:42:38 PM
I don't expect it to get better fuel economy than the old set up, but by improving the efficiency of the intake and exhaust, I should be able to improve it a bit.

I pulled codes tonight just to see if there were any issues even though the light wasn't on.

I pulled KOEO-81,82...which are "air management circuit 2 fault" and "air management circuit 1 fault"...that's to be expected because I never pinned the TAB and TAD solenoids back in.

I pulled KOER- 44,94...thermactor air system inoperative #1-4, #5-8...that also was to be expected as I don't have any air pump or related equipment on the car.

I didn't get any codes from the O2's, so it's nice to know its running within the factory accepted a/f ratio.  No "out of range" codes for any other sensors, so it all seems to be good.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Masejoer on June 19, 2009, 11:15:17 PM
I don't expect anyone to think that but it would certainly be possible with those and perhaps some other minor tune adjustments. I doubt a 500rpm Windsor would ever be that smooth though. I've played with the idea of lowering my idle a little to see what I can pull out of city economy but making only 80ftlbs at idle, I doubt there is much to gain without other problems like alternator output.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on June 20, 2009, 05:52:43 PM
Yeah, it would probably sound AWESOME idling around 500rpm though...lol.  I might mess around with that later on, just to see.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: 86caprirs on October 29, 2009, 10:20:12 PM
Ok. I got the bug. I picked up a 96 5.8L engine. I am getting the pan from a 351w 85 Grand Marquie. I am useing the Bronco Adapter for now.

I just want to get the engine runningin the car then modify it later. So I am going to put headers on, get a h pipe and cat back Magnaflow, a 89 distributer from a truck 351w,put on the adapter and toss the old 5.0L upper on, mass air for the 19's lbs and a A9L and do the wiring swap from a Non HO to a HO. I will stick with the truck cam for now.

But I have to ask, what flywheel or flex plate do i need? I heard just to use the mid 80's Crown Vic one with the 351w.Is that right?

Also how was the wiring for the computer? Did you have to change the wiring for the injectors or is that done through the pcm?

Oh and the A/C is the only problem you had with the hood clearance? ever thought of spacing your K-member like the big block swap guys do?

Thanks for the help to make me do this instead of the 460 swap.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on October 31, 2009, 05:04:22 PM
Quote from: 86caprirs;296939
Ok. I got the bug. I picked up a 96 5.8L engine. I am getting the pan from a 351w 85 Grand Marquie. I am useing the Bronco Adapter for now.

I just want to get the engine runningin the car then modify it later. So I am going to put headers on, get a h pipe and cat back Magnaflow, a 89 distributer from a truck 351w,put on the adapter and toss the old 5.0L upper on, mass air for the 19's lbs and a A9L and do the wiring swap from a Non HO to a HO. I will stick with the truck cam for now.

But I have to ask, what flywheel or flex plate do i need? I heard just to use the mid 80's Crown Vic one with the 351w.Is that right?

Also how was the wiring for the computer? Did you have to change the wiring for the injectors or is that done through the pcm?


I would go with the Crown Vic flex plate if staying AOD, if going with a T5 or TKO series then you'd need to order the Ford Racing flywheel(or equivalent). The 351 has the same firing order as the HO, so there is no need to fiddle around with re-pinning injectors. The only information you need on wiring is the MAF swap, which is quite simple, I just don't have mine laying around anymore.

Quote from: 86caprirs;296939
Oh and the A/C is the only problem you had with the hood clearance? ever thought of spacing your K-member like the big block swap guys do?


I actually don't have a problem with hood clearance like I originally thought I would...as long as you're not using a T/C hood, you should be fine.  I spaced my hood up at the hinges as a "just in case", but I have plenty of clearance and could probably let it down...I'm just lazy...lol.

Quote from: 86caprirs;296939
Thanks for the help to make me do this instead of the 460 swap.

No problem buddy, that's what we're all here for.

Good luck,
Don
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: 86caprirs on October 31, 2009, 10:13:36 PM
I am going to use the TC hood. Maybe I should delete the a/c then and find a power steering only?

The Crown Vic flex plate is a 157 tooth and 28oz ballance right?

I forgot to ask. Did you use the stock 5.0L engine mounts from the Tbird? Or did you make your own?

Do you have pics of what you did to your intake?

Thanks
Shane
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on November 01, 2009, 04:13:15 PM
I believe the AOD flexplates are all 164 tooth, I could be mistaken.  As long as it's for a 5.8 Crown Vic then it'll have the correct 28oz imbalance and work with your AOD.  I do not have any pics of what I did to my intake, but it's pretty simple with the right tools...just takes some time and work.  Working over my upper plenum really woke my car up, increasing the usable RPM range by about 600-800rpm(still using stock HO throttle body).
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: 86caprirs on November 01, 2009, 05:21:00 PM
See now I need to know that. I can get a 157 tooth or a 164 tooth 28oz flexplate. I just need to know which one now.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: 86caprirs on November 03, 2009, 10:02:37 PM
I heard that all aod flywheels are 164 tooth....even 5.0L ones? Can anyone verify this?
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: TurboCoupe50 on November 03, 2009, 11:03:11 PM
Quote from: 86caprirs;297516
I heard that all aod flywheels are 164 tooth....even 5.0L ones? Can anyone verify this?


That should be correct, flexplate size is dictated by the bellhousing and AFIK all AOD's are same...
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Dougy_Fresh on November 04, 2009, 12:20:11 AM
what did you do to your intake?

"HO intake cut open fully ported -3" of runner length"

i'm not following
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: 86caprirs on November 04, 2009, 07:04:58 PM
OK. So I do need a 164 tooth then. OOops.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on November 05, 2009, 06:54:43 PM
Quote from: Dougy_Fresh;297531
what did you do to your intake?

"HO intake cut open fully ported -3" of runner length"

i'm not following


HO intake cut open, 3" of internal runner cut out, fully ported and welded back together...it's a pretty simple thing to understand.

I finally finished my "5.8 HO" beauty plate and got it on the car, I need to try to get a pic of that pretty soon.

-Don
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: vinnietbird on November 07, 2009, 11:24:38 PM
I want to see the intake and plate.
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on November 08, 2009, 10:14:17 PM
The intake looks like poop because I was very hasty in finishing it up and getting it on the car...I think the plate looks cool though...again, I will try to get a few pics up soon.

-Don
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: 86caprirs on November 09, 2009, 09:58:17 PM
Quote from: Sick88Tbird;297739
HO intake cut open, 3" of internal runner cut out, fully ported and welded back together...it's a pretty simple thing to understand.

I finally finished my "5.8 HO" beauty plate and got it on the car, I need to try to get a pic of that pretty soon.

-Don


I am sorta following you but I am guessing you cut the end opposite to the throttle body. You cut it front to back. Then you ground down the individual runners back into the intake towards the throttle body so that there was a bigger area of space there for the air? Am I close or make absolutly no sence?
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: Sick88Tbird on November 16, 2009, 05:50:04 PM
I cut the plenum "box" section off(opposite the throttle body) and hogged out the ports as well as removing the port walls in the plenum section...it works out to about 3" less runner length and adds to the overall plenum volume.  I also spent a LOT of time on the "throat" of the intake(the tube running from the throttle body to the plenum).  There is a lot of room in these things for porting but no matter how you cut it, it's still an HO intake...you won't make any miracles happen...but it did extend my usable RPM range by a solid 800rpm or so.

We're probably saying the same thing about the intake, just in different words...lol.

Good luck,
Don
Title: *PICS* Just finished 351W swap...PICS ADDED!!!!
Post by: 86caprirs on November 16, 2009, 09:17:53 PM
Yes we are. Next time I will try to use pics. LOL

Thanks