Fox T-Bird/Cougar Forums

Bottom line, the CFI 3.8 is a stinky turd.

What do you do to remedy this? The easiest way is to swap in a 5.0. However, if you are mentally deranged like myself, a Windsor V6 upgrade looks like a feasible option.

There are a multitude of later model 3.8s to throw in:

1988 Fox --- (SD - MPI)
'89-'90 MN12 (SD - ?)
'91-97' MN12 (MAF - SEFI)
'94-'98 SN95  (MAF - SEFI)
'99-'04 SN95  (MAF - SEFI)

There are many more differences between the engines and peripherals than the SD/MAF and MPI/SEFI designation, but it makes for a nice arbitrary compartmentalization.

Now that one knows where to grab a better 3.8L, the questions becomes, which 3.8L do you grab? Since the main reason for the swap is a power increase, let us sort them by power output:

1984-1987 Fox - 120 hp@3600 rpm -- 205 ft-lb@1600 rpm
------1988 Fox - 140 hp@3600 rpm --205 ft-lb@1600 rpm
1989-1995 MN12 140 hp@3800 rpm --215 ft-lb@2400 rpm
1996-1997 MN12 145 hp@4000 rpm --215 ft-lb@2750 rpm
1994-1995 SN95- 145 hp@4000 rpm --215 ft-lb@2750 rpm
1996-1998 SN95 -150 hp@4000 rpm --215 ft-lb@2750 rpm
1999-2000 SN95 - 190 hp@5250 rpm -220 ft-lb@2750 rpm
2001-2004 SN95 - 193 hp@5500 rpm -225 ft-lb@2800 rpm
1996-2003 WStar 200 hp@4900 rpm - 240 ft-lb@3600 rpm
1997-2005 Truck -200 hp@4700 rpm - 250 ft-lb@2700 rpm (4.2L)

The engine slowly gained power through the years, but the major change was the introduction of the split port intake. The split port's large power increase (>25%) makes it the prime swap candidate.

The swap can be done in a multitude of ways, but the most direct is to take an entire engine, EEC and harness from a '99-04 Mustang. There are several things to be aware of though.

Clearance -

The Mustang upper should clear a stock hood.
The 4.2L upper almost certainly won't.
The Windstar upper won't either.

EEC Issues -

Even after swapping in a complete EEC-V computer and harness, there are still problems. PATS, EVAP and the returnless fuel system. All three can both be turned off with an SCT flash - problem solved.

Chassis Wiring -

I've looked through my EVTM's and can't find which wires interface with the EEC harness. However, whatever they are, a little "custom" splicing and dicing will do the trick.

Fuel Deliver -

99+ Mustangs use a returnless fuel system. The problem is that Walbro type pumps will surge and die if run with PWM. Since the 99+ Mustang pumps (vane) won't drop in, you must modify the fuel rails to keep a return system. F150 or Windstar rails are normally the ones people modify to fit.

Transmission -

You can go manual or automatic. The easiest option is to just pull the 4R70W or T5 that came with the engine.


Throttle Cable -

Unsure if Mustang cable is long enough or will interface with the pedal correctly.

A/C -

Liquid line should work. Custom hoses needed for discharge and suction

P/S -

Pressure hose might work.

Coolant Hoses -

SN95 radiator has larger inlet/outlets than Fox.
Water pump inlet and thermostat outlet are same for SN95/Fox.
Upper radiator hose is the same length for SN95/Fox, might fit...
Lower hose is 4" longer. Frankenhose may be required.
Heater core inlet hose may/may not fit

Tripminder -

Microcontroller required to convert injector pulses, duty cycle to pulse-train equivalent to DOL. Use GUFB


I'm sure I have missed several important items, but this is a draft to be built upon.

I have focused on the 3.8, but you can swap in a 4.2 (or put 4.2 internals in a 3.8) too. The 3.8/4.2 heads are the same, the main external difference is in the size of the upper intake. The truck intakes are much taller, as seen below (L-R, 01+ Mustang intake, 4.2L intake, 99-00 Mustang intake)

(http://rpm-mustangs.com/pictures/tech/splitportintakedifferences/threeupperintakesrear.jpg)

A few people have swapped in Windstar intakes, but those require 4" cowl hoods on SN95s. The following is a '96-'98 intake.
(http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/436000-436999/436832_695_full.jpg)
(http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/436000-436999/436832_696_full.jpg)
(http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/436000-436999/436832_660_full.jpg)

The Windstar intake is actually the best power-wise. It makes 7 more horsepower and 25 more ft-lb of torque than a Mustang, and the Windstar has a more restrictive exhaust. This is due to the increased height of the intake. Also, as you can tell, the intake is plastic.

Excellent info. I've always wondered if a mass-air V6 computer would work with split port. Obviously you'd need one from a DIS car (such as Super Coupe or 94-95 Mustang) as a distributor would never work with an SPI intake. The IRCM system would obviously have to be removed as well...

Some day I'm gonna do this swap to a four-eye as well, but I'd like to do one with a twin turbo setup. A twice-turbo'd 4.2 SPI engine could very likely make lots of power, it would be lighter than a 5.0 based engine, and with the engine's shorter length there'd be more room under the hood for the turbos as well.

A question: What intake is used in the Econoline van? Is it the same height as the truck intake?


'Nother question: Looking at Mitchell OnDemand it shows both a distributor and a DIS setup available for non-supercharged 94-95 T-Birds and Cougars. I had always thought only the supercharged MN12's had DIS. Was DIS available in NA cars, or is Mitchell OnDemand, as usual, full of shiznit?

This is some good info... keep it coming!!!

You can run a distributor with a Mustang SP, you just have to delete the EGR. [1 (http://"http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=12648")] [2 (http://"http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=12856")]


Also, 99-00 cars did not have IRCMs. They were introduced in '01.
I don't know. I couldn't find any mention of the Econoline intake, only that the fuel rail was also useful in modifying for a return system (like the F-150).



IIRC, 94-95 cars with California emissions have DIS. 49 state cars have distributors.

The Econoline and Windstar Upper are both aluminum.  I kept all the DIS stuff as well just for the heck of it.  What stopped my 4.2 swap was my doner, spun bearings everywhere in the engine you see below.  It sits in the corner of my garage now in the "WTF" pile o' .

200 bux wasted.  Im still not really sure on all the interfacing of the chassis to eec wiring to date and that would call for a stare and compare at evtms.

I wasnt too impressed with the exhaust ports but if that was a part of making the extra power, then so be it, seemed rather small of an output , perhaps thats a part of the back presure game played into the engineering.

And what about that GOD AWFUL huge oil pan?  perhaps thats one issue that could be resolved in order to lower it.  I took measurements and IMHO, it all would fit perfectly except for the pan and rack interferance.  I sat both the 3.8 and the 4.2 side by side and to tell you the truth, it looked just fine sitting on the floor.  In the bay, i dono but it will be close.

The Windstar intake is plastic.

This engine was out of a windstar 01.  Intake is aluminum, maybe its one of fords many flukes on what got plastic and what got metal,,i dono.

since mine is all torn apart,, do you need pics of any parts and whatnot?

revised@brier.net ,,
or ill postem here.

scott

and actually,,, to save all the time and hassel, get the 88 doner engine and swap in the 4.2 short block internals.

your existing CFI harness is pretty much the same as the 88 with the exception of a few minor things to say the least.  No oil pan issues either as well as intake. ,, unless you really like that fugly looking upper on the 4.2:D

the problem with us who have the CFI setups are that we have external balance setups, thats why the 88+ is ideal for this upgrade.  The 4.2 stuff is made for internal balance systems.  I really dont know if you could just slap in the 4.2 stuff in the 87- blocks without major problems in the vibration area.  Not to mention the harmonic does not bolt on to the 4.2 crank iirc.

The 88 fuel injectors fire exactly like and at the same time as the CFI off pins 58 and 59 at the eec so thats another bonus in the No wiring department.

I guess anyone could go with the 4.2 dis if they wanted to but that would take just a little more doing in the wiring dept.

'88 3.8s had the balance shaft, '87 3.8s didn't...how would this balance shaft affect swapping the 4.2 stuff in?

Wow, those are all some ugly intakes.  Crazy stuff though.  Good luck Jeremy.  Oh and what's the deal with the V6's in the latest Mustangs?

Then late 90's Windstars had Plastic one's.  I worked on a 97 that had a plastic intake.

I believe that's the same SOHC 4.0 you'll find under the hoods of Rangers and Explorers

its not really the balance shaft that is the issue.  Its the whole design of the 3.8 in 1988 that makes it the winner of choice in my opinion.  Im no certified or schooled mechanic and i have a lot to learn but this cross road is where i have come to be the most rational approach.

The 4.2L is  a 3.8 block with a stroker kit and a bunch of other wing ding bolt ons.

The 4.2 crank is a solid tempered steel hunk of metal (this is a good thing since it can be turned more than a cast iron crank that has only tempered journals.  If you turn a cast iron crank to much, you get to the soft metal.  This is unlike the shorter stroke of the cast iron 3.8 crank and makes the cast iron less desirable compared to the 4.2.  Im pretty sure the 88 3.8 crank is also steel and not cast iron. 

My 4.2 crank out in the garage has been drilled along the oil slingers for balance.,,just fyi

Its not the balance shaft that ist he issue, its just locating like 3.8's with the exact short block configuration so you an put in the 4.2 kit.

There is a long ass thread of mine in engine swapping on this where i ultimatly ended up at a roadblock due to a bad engine.


If you just put the 4.2 stuff in an 87 and down engine,, im not really sure how it would run due to the lack of it being balanced the same.  I am pretty sure the 3.8 harmonic will not slip on the nipple of the 4,2 crank, so,,, since the 4.2 never came with a harmonic, it stands to reason you would wanna stick with a compareable design.

Maybe tomorrow ill clear this up ,, ill see if my 87 3.8 harmonic fits the 4.2 crank.  If it does fit,, then maybe thats what a guy named Rick on therangerstation.com means when he says "the 4.2L short block internals are a direct swap in the 3.8".  If the harmonic fits, then is a tempting upgrade for all 3.8's.  I just avoided using my block cause its externally balanced.

I also feel its a benefit to mention that the 4.2 connecting rods are forged "H" beam in design and much more durable than the earlier 3.8 rods.  I can tell they are much more duable than the earlier 3.8's because the rod caps are "broken off" instead of cut.  Makes for a real real fool proof system when reassembly comes around because no two rod caps are alike.

The 4.2 is a floating piston design as well, just fyi.


Now,, hows this for an idea,, Destroke **any** 3.8 and just use the rods and pistons from the 4.2, keep your crank.  That would be a huge rpm range gain due to less Rod Angle / wear and tear / vibration not to mention a longer lasting setup in the HP arena.  ANy thoughts on this last comment?????????????

Our '01 Windstar has a plastic intake as well.

As long as you used the 4.2 front pulley (or balancer or whatever it is) and flywheel you should be able to use the 4.2 guts in the 87-and-older blocks. The block itself has nothing to do with balance - it's all in the crank, flywheel and balancer. There would be no need to use the 3.8 balancer - indeed, if the two engines are balanced differently it would actually kill the engine.


That might work but would result in a very low compression ratio. The 3.8 crank wouldn't allow the pistons to come all the way up in their bores. The 4.2 rods are slightly longer than the 3.8 (about 0.20") but the compression height of the pistons (distance from top of piston to pin) is about .35" shorter, meaning your piston would now come to TDC about .15" lower in the bore.

sorry to babble so much here jeremy, Let us know which direction you go.

Much info here:

http://www.babpen 15s.com/editorial/ar/ar90134.htm

IF I ever get the opportunity to do it: 
83-86 Tbird 3.8 V6 AOD car:

Add to that:
Truck 4.2 longblock w/ 97computer for manual transmission.  That way I can mount it to an AOD and use a return style fuel system.
A bigger issue for me will be wiring up the dash and A/C differences.  Are ANY of the senders from an EEC-V system compatible with a dash from an EEC-IV system?

What I think would be neat to do would be to have the 4.2 internals...in a 3.8SC block...
But in an '88 Tbird...I mean...we ALL want to be blown AND stroked, right?? :D :flame:

holly snitts,, why didnt i think of that!

lol.

Any relevant information is good information for the thread.

I've been recovering from surgeries and complications from said procedures for the past 6 months, so I won't be making much physical progress any time soon.

the 94-95 mustangs are eec-v with a return style fuel system. imo the 94-95 3.8 are junk 3 sets of headgaskets in 5 yrs.

Made some progress last weekend. Old engine and transmission are out.  New engine is in for test fitment.

Random findings:

(http://griffshp.com/belchja/pics/spswap/spswap%20032_r.jpg)
Broken alternator mount

(http://griffshp.com/belchja/pics/spswap/spswap%20040_r.jpg)
Visibly loose bolt on the oil pump

(http://griffshp.com/belchja/pics/spswap/spswap%20042_r.jpg)
O2 signal return wire missing insulation

Also, the NVH weight on the transmission tailshaft was broken, but I've lost my camera-to-computer cable.

Pulling the old stuff went pretty smoothly except for a rounded starter bolt and transmission removal.

(http://griffshp.com/belchja/pics/spswap/spswap%20052_r.jpg)
Upsie-daisy

(http://griffshp.com/belchja/pics/spswap/spswap%20058_r.jpg)
Freeeee

(http://griffshp.com/belchja/pics/spswap/spswap%20075_r.jpg)
NOT how you want to remove a tranny w/o a plug in the rear...

(http://griffshp.com/belchja/pics/spswap/spswap%20111_r2.jpg)
[Ace Ventura]Like a glove!

After I bought the SP engine and did some preliminary measuring I was worried the rear plane of the upper intake might hit the firewall and would definitely hit the discharge hose (although it will be removed eventually) and the vacuum bracket. It ended up fitting perfectly.

I still need to remove all the old vacuum lines and engine harness. Once completed I can begin figuring out exactly how to re-wire and integrate the new harness.

awesome.

I hope your dospoogeenting this besides this thread.

Im interested in the resources you got on wiring, evtm or something?

You should really go electric fan to ,, wont hurt anything.

GOOD JOB BTW,, finally someone is doing it.  That 4 eyed never saw this coming!!!

what freaking color are those CFI injectors anyway?

time to take away your paper clip code puller,,lol

[SIZE="6"]I
Hate
You[/SIZE]

:hick:

Looks good!  Keep it comin'

very cool, I would like to see how it moves out when it is done....

Just mental notes so far. Once I get further along I'll post up solutions to the roadblocks I've found.


I bought the 2002 Helm wiring manual.


I'm going to put in an MN12 fan controlled by a DC fan controller (http://"http://www.dccontrol.com/0820.htm").



Advance Auto specials that I installed after I clogged the inlet filter in my OEM pair.


Ho-ray for the ability to read engine outputs in real time w/o putting a BoB in!

What's the best way to get the engine/tranny in the car?

I was planning to remove the front clip, and install the engine/tranny together with all accessories on the engine. Will that work? Any tips?

Also, I need some kind of programmer to kill PATS/EVAP/Rear O2s/etc. SCT looks like a good buy, but I'm not sure which product is what I need. Also, will I need to get a "tune" by a third party to turn on/off those scalars? (unless I have the Pro Racer Package)

I would pull the side accesories like you did in the first pic, and I would just pull it all out at the same time. I did it with a 5.0 and an AOD, I didn't even remove the ac condenser radiator thingy. I cant remember how much of the front accessories I pulled off though.

I know it will fit with the water pump, oil pan, and timing chian cover.

Going in over the front should work depending on your engine lift and its reach.  If you don't want to mar up the bumper cover, then at the very least pull it.  Sure as you leave the header panel on though...well...you get the idea.

When I put the engine back in the '83, I dropped the engine and bellhousing in as a unit and took them in over the fender (to avoid having to mess with removing the front end).  I don't think I would try that with an engine/trans together.  I think I had the front on jackstands and the driver front wheel off just to give me maneuvering room.  It was a solo job, so it wasn't too difficult.  With an extra pair of hands to steady things it would have been nicer though.

I installed the 5.0 and AOD as a unit in my TC... No upper intake, but headers were on, as was the water pump and harmonic balancer... Installed the accessory brackets, P/S, alt, etc after it was in...

Here's how mine went in.....

Bob swapped his 408 and T-5 in as a unit. I think he left the bumper on from the pics. Think the long tubes where on too.

Still alive. No progress...

thanks for the non-update :tg:

There will be updates...soon :p

i was wondering how you were moving along

I would like to see this keep moving. An update at least means you havent forgotten about it,

Hey Jeremy, you had better hurry up with this project, otherwise I'll just convert mine back to EFI with a 4R70W and steal the glory!

But seriously, did you hit a roadblock?

Any update on this?

I've been planning a work weekend with two friends for Memorial Day. I've also been on travel/vacation since the 7th of May until last night so today/tomorrow I am frantically purchasing everything I need to get her running.

By the end of the weekend, the engine/tranny should be in the car and operational, but I don't have a floor shifter/cable or 4R70W yoke so it isn't going anywhere. Also a chance that some critical items might not show up in time...

I'll give out updates as they happen.

it, almost 2 years the Blue  has been sitting in my garage. :mad::(

PM sent

I made a spreadsheet relating circuit number to circuit function for all relevant (and many irrelevant) connectors/components in the Mustang and Cougar, but have lost it. Have to do it all over again! :mad:

Baumann and D&D no longer have any Fox 4R70W crossmembers. Looks like I'll have to convert the old one.
FPDM, and FPDM on the way. SCT Xcalibrator should be sent out today/tomorrow.

FPDM didn't arrive from MPS, so no chance of it running this weekend even if we get everything else sorted out. Ordered it Wednesday, should have arrived yesterday/today. :mad:

4R70W from gumby arrived today! :D Thanks! No more red sea when I put the tranny back in.

Current status for this evening. Tranny/Engine mated after a bit of head scratching. Turns out the converter wasn't mated/keyed into the tranny so the converter-to-flexplate studs bottomed out on the engine block plate. Once we took it all apart, problem located and solved.

Ready to slap it in tomorrow, figure out the crossmember modding required, and figure out wiring.

technically, with an 88 engine wouldn't one simply be able to swap heads, upper and lower intake in and be done with it? Or am I WAY oversimplifying things?

I know you don't have an 88 but I'm just saying...

BTW, the plastic intakes on windstars were definitely from at least 96 and later b/c I had a 1995 windstar a few years ago and it had the exact same (upper at least) intake that the 88-98 cougarbirds/mustangs had. (although it may have been ported a little bigger)

I talked to a guy today who has an 03 v6 mustang and he swapped out for the plastic windstar intake and said he gained over 20hp just from that. Of course, that was after headers and x-pipe and flowmasters.

I think you'll definitely wanna look into that mod though. :D

Another funny thing, when I swapped my engines, when I pulled my original out, I already had taken 90% of everything off it. What got me was that even though it was an 88 engine, there was no internal balancer. The new one had one though, but it was a long block, so I reused my external balancer from the old one. And I'll tell you what, I didn't notice a bit of problem with the either block far as balancing, so that might not really be a big deal at all. I think that's why Ford took it out the next year. Cause it was useless.

Also Jeremy, which year's engine did you actually end up getting?

That may work, but I haven't looked into the feasibility of it. 


Not sure the plastic Windstar intakes will fit under the hood, so I don't think I'll be going that route. The extra power would be nice though.

2002.

Update:

We got the engine/transmission situated Saturday.
Crossmember fit after zizzing the spot welds and sliding it back to the AOD position.
Driveshaft may not need shortening. Will try and get under the car to verify that next week.
Grabbed a Z-shaped heater hose and two 90 degree hoses to hook up the heater hoses. No issues there.
Upper radiator hose on the radiator side needs to be shortened ~2" to fit.
Lower radiator hose hits the belt between the crank pulley and power steering pump. 2002 hose may work, but the 2002 radiator is 1.5" inlet, 1985 is 1.25".
Stock fuel line is female duckbill. 2002 fuel line is male springlock. Option 1 is to build a braided teflon line with pimpy adapter fittings to hook to the fuel filter (duckbill) and engine fuel line (springlock). Would run ~$140.
Option 2 is to have a shop build a line with like-stock parts. Cost unknown.
Had quite a bit of scope creep wrt the wiring. Original idea was to just kludge together any wires needed to get it running.
New idea is to buy the power/dash/body harness from a 2002 Mustang and mate everything under the dash. This means all wiring firewall forward is "new". Body harness will allow easy wiring of the FPDM and EVAP system at the back of the car. Also provides wiring for the ABS sensors (if I decide to add that).
Overall it will make for a much cleaner harness, but with much more work.

That's all I can remember for now. I'll post some pictures when I get home next week.

I was kinda just wondering cause I was considering swapping the heads and all into mine.

Pictars

(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/pics/spswap/spswap 161_r_c.jpg)
Trying to mate the tranny and engine up. When we tightened the flexplate to converter nuts, the flexplate stud would bottom out on the block plate. After several failed attempts we pulled the two apart and found  that the converter pulled forward and slipped off of the input shaft. Durrrr. :o

(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/pics/spswap/spswap 164_r.jpg)
Is it gonna fit?

(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/pics/spswap/spswap 165_r.jpg)
The engine leveler was invaluable

(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/pics/spswap/spswap 173_r.jpg)
Took a page out of the mod motor guy's handbook and pre-oiled the engine by hooking up a garden sprayer filled with oil to the pressure sender port.

(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/pics/spswap/spswap 174_r.jpg)

(http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/pics/spswap/spswap 176_r.jpg)
Like a glove!
Thought we'd have to cut'n'weld. But it fits by the skin of its teeth.

Props to gumby's old 4R70W yoke that kept my garage floor from turning into a lake of ATF. :D


The wholesale installation of SN95 wiring is very daunting. I am considering rigging* it up to get it to run so I can build up a head of steam for the final push.

*build fuel line, wire up OBD-II, flash ECU, and wire up FPDM with straight pipes on the exhaust
and wire up the alternator, and wire up the starter, swap battery to driver's side, etc, etc :(

Outstanding work my good man!

yay for updates! keep after it, its lookin good.

alright!

Sweet. This is looking good.

Hello-llo-lo-o-[SIZE="2"]o[/SIZE]-[size="1"]o[/size]?

hehe ;)

x2!  :D

using a sprayer to do what?????????????????

thats a friggin good idea!!

when do you know to stop? when you see oil coming out the top of a push rod? or what?

Last Activity
    09-16-2010 05:15 PM
I think something may have hapened. Either he forgot about us or lost his internet. hopefully not something worse....

I have talked to him more recently than that, he is alive.

ah good good then he must have become sidetracked?

Did this ever progress any further either?

Not much. Cougar has been sitting in my garage for 3+ years. :punchballs:

I plan on getting back to it very soon, but that and $0.35 will get you a collect call.

I'll give an update post when I get back on the horse.

I look forward to seeing your progress :)

Yes, this project still exists! The Cougar is still sitting in my garage.

Anybody have an idea if the '99-'04 engine bay is similar enough for me to run the stock air intake assembly without major slice and dice to the bay?

Close enough.  How's that wiring coming?

a little tid bit of 3.8 stuff to further this thread..

the internals will swap into a 3.8L from the 4.2  (crank, rods, pistons , cam, balance shaft.

however, this would only be true for the 88 3.8L motor.  The 4.2L is internal balanced engine and is more compatable with the 88 3.8L than the 87 on down 3.8 motors.  the 88 birds / cougs have this motor in this body style one year only.

the 87 on down 3.8's were all externally balanced engines.

in short, all you 88 3.8 folks could easily do a stroker and .4L is a gain.

Still haven't done much. Getting ready for a wedding, selling my house, renovating my fiance's house. Buddy's keep telling me to get a work weekend together. It's on the back burner, but slowly moving up.

Need..........up........dates.................. LOL

Mine's still waiting for me to finish wiring it up.  :)

Getting closer! Mine coughed to life last night. Still a LONG road ahead.

Awesome job bud. I am the kind of guy that loves to do odd ball stuff to cars and with you being able to upgrade to the split port 3.8L engine just shows that there is more options then finding a standard replacement to stick in there. I think that a 3.8L SC engine would be an option too.

Some days I wish I was rich so I could just do stuff like this all day.

Keep up the good work and show as many pics as you can.