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Thread: MK8 and mass air sensor tied to an a9p eec

  1. #51
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    Yes. You have to have a quarterhorse or a tweecer.
    1988 Thunderbird 5.0
    GT40P, TFS-1, KB domes, 30#, MAF conversion, Explorer GT40 Upper/Lower, Smog delete, Wide Ratio AOD Mod, Unlocked Speedo, 3G Charging System Upgrade, Hi-Torque Mini Starter, 3.73 LSD, BBK 1 5/8 unequal headers, H-Pipe.

    88 Thunderbird/Cougar EVTM
    (Thanks to Trinom for hosting)

  2. #52
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    just got told i keep my narrow band o2 sensors and hook them up.,,, yet i install ONE wide band o2 on the same radial as the stock narrow band,,, and keep it within the 9 to 3 o'clock location.

    this way each sensor is unobstructed and they both are up high.


    the wide band will tie to the eec on pin 27 along with a ground near the eec so the ref gnd is married close to the same.
    sound correct?

  3. #53
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    Scott this is getting way to complicated. Simply if you tune you can use what you have and make upgrades as required. I've been doing this a very long time and can tell you there is a lot of unnecessary internet BS suggested tune changes .....some of which are included in this thread. You also can't count on datasheet info to work well. Ford doesn't follow their own data for injectors why would you. Even the MAF will need tweaking for the Mark8 MAF......the transfer function is tuned for a 4.6L mod motor with a much different intake tract....not to mention a whole different processor set for 24# injectors.

    My recommendation is to use a calibrated MAF regardless of tune or no tune. I prefer redundancy......you can tune everything perfectly but if the chip fails.....your dead on the side of the road. With the calibrated MAF you can still limp it home.

    John

  4. #54
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    Forgot to mention....you only need one wideband. While tuning you disable the driver side in software and install your wideband in the existing bung. ( I suggest the driver side due to it's usually the leaner bank.....you will have to detmain which side is leaner) You only need an additional bung if you wish to permanently install the wideband. When done tuning you put the narrow band back in and re activate in software. You only need the WB to tune your WOT and OL fuel. The narrow bands will help you dial in Closed Loop.

    Long story short .....in the end you want a narrow band on each bank.

    I don't recommend NB emulation back to the ECU. The wideband is just that....a wide band fuel sensor..... It's not fast enough for these ECUs that are looking for a very specific narrow band switch. But hey.....what do I know.....there will be many that will disagree ....my experience and training tell me differently.

    John

  5. #55
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    mike, ive been wondering something so i will compare it to something of what i have experienced in the past.

    the example will lead into questioning "does the software really represent to 99.7% of what is really happening.

    on an Alpha DC power plant i did which was 20kA , -54v system we tied 11) C&D 2180AH battery strings.
    the DC power plant has a "cordex controller",,, the word controller is misleading as it does handle working with various digital and analog inputs and supplies various reactionary outputs during operation.
    the controller will display two key values during a time when the utility AC input is down.
    the voltage and the current demand extracted from all the 11) parallel battery strings. it also displays a visual numerical value of "HOW MANY HOURS YOU HAVE TILL THE BATTERY SYSTEM IS DEAD". with switch mode power supplies and such when the potential goes down,, the current demand goes up,,, so all cables are based on a design application of 42vdc.
    these batteries are 7901 lbs each,, about 4'w x 2'd x 7'h,,, consisting of 24)2volt cells in a 3x8 or 4x6 configuration all strapped in series to give you a base 48v string. they are floated during normal conditions at 54vdc,, 2.25vpc.

    gosh,,,i promise i will get to my point.. but i felt complelled to provide an example to support my question.

    so... in order for the controller to display a proper accurate runtime in hours during an emergency utility outage,, two values are entered sourced from something called the "Peukert Number".
    these two values come from looking up the OEM data sheets and when the battery string is at 1.75vpc,,, the runtime for the whole string has a ampacity at the 1hr and 20hr rate.
    you enter the 1hr discharge rate and the 20hr discharge rate.
    the controller has tables it references to now that you have given it two points in time, it fills in the gaps to display to the customer the estimated runtiime in hours based on the amps load.

    I manually create an outage of utility to put the plant on battery with about 3000A load,,, i wait for about 5min to let the battery shake of the coup de fouet,,, then look.

    my redneck math formula ive used to answer how long you have to battery dead is like this,,,, one string at 2180ah rated xx .88=1918AH. 1918x11 strings =21102ah capacity.

    the load is 3000A. 21102ah/3000A = about 7hrs runtime.

    apparently the controller scared the customer because the display showed 3hours.,, got me questioning things as i amp clamped each string,, all 11 were showing about 270amps of load ,,
    in real life the battery(s) were discharging correctly,, yet the programming of the "way" the controller was showing hours was in error. there was a formula problem,, i corrected it and all is well, yet many people trust the software. the correction i had to make resided in the firmware and software which is not visible to anyone without having the god code password to see the code.,, i got it fixed though.,, controller ended up showing the same as my 1$ calculator.

    have you verified that yes you ran lean on spark and fuel in reality as to compere it to what the software is saying and if yes,,, how?

    i think someone like you would have done some sort of reality check to verify what the computer says is in fact correct.


    ==============
    side note,,,
    i asked around if any of this tuning software displays "alarms"

    what i mean by this is for the elementary beginner like me.
    example,, i run my car and the software detected that when i was pushing on the gas , my tps voltage for example went from 2.7vdc to 1.1v then to 2.9vdc,, illustrating a situation where the tps has a flat/worn out spot. the software would log this into something called logs and files,, called Alarms or whatever.

    this type of thing would be something a user like my self would get "told" something is wrong.

    this wold be true for any other item in the car on the EEC that has an expected job to do and when its intermittent or failing,, the software logs in another alarm.

    getting alarms would trigger the user to "do something"

    i truly believe there is a market for this feature,, i would pay for it as well.

    in my 20th,, i do not get a CEL each and every time. heck,, i may have codes in that car now and not know it.
    Last edited by jcassity; 05-10-2018 at 07:56 AM.

  6. #56
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    ive settled on tweecer and a stock mkviii maf

    i am going to purchase pretuned services as well , along with the remote switch to pick from 4 predone tunes.

    the tweecer does not depend on an onboard battery, not that its a bad thing but it is a possible point of failure.

    the tweecer has oem support services, with qtr horse i feel almost like i am on my own having to muddle through yahoo and the web for help... which in my world i at this time do not feel i want to make the time of weeks or so getting the car to run on the first start with 95% great results.

    at this point i will settle on turnkey service,, with remote vnc tech support to fine tune . With a working system from the oem, i can feel more comfortable knowing that i am making progress on the remaining parts of this build and i can learn from something that is "working" vs learning from something i "think" i may have gotten to work on my own.

    i am on my own to find a wide band 02... doing that now.

    since the car will not live with the pedal at 70% to the floor 100% of the time,, i am going to stay 24# inj for now,, against the recommendations i know.... i hope i dont regret it.

    ive been assured that there wont be extra tweecer costs if i change to 30lb later, other than my burden on injector cost & install.

  7. #57
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    If you're not comfortable with the learning curve, or don't want to spend the time for trial and error or incremental adjustments, I think you're making a wise decision. As I said before, some of these guys have huge databases of component data for building tunes to order. I still think you're going to lean out at the top on 24s, but the drivability as a daily should be just fine. Your kid has to know that before he takes it out into the world. At any rate, changing the tune later for 30s or 42s is easy enough once you have the TwEECer.
    1988 Thunderbird 5.0
    GT40P, TFS-1, KB domes, 30#, MAF conversion, Explorer GT40 Upper/Lower, Smog delete, Wide Ratio AOD Mod, Unlocked Speedo, 3G Charging System Upgrade, Hi-Torque Mini Starter, 3.73 LSD, BBK 1 5/8 unequal headers, H-Pipe.

    88 Thunderbird/Cougar EVTM
    (Thanks to Trinom for hosting)

  8. #58
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    thanks,, i did tell chance you offered up a file to get the car ballpark started which he and i thank you for,, he's working building Volvo's,, down in dublin Va.. little time to piddle.

    seems like i have more spare time than i know what to do with at the current moment,, i hope that doesnt change but it may if my own company doesn't work out. im into my 2nd year now,,

  9. #59
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    The 24lb injectors should be fine around town. I'd be a bit leery of frequent WOT runs.

    My Thunderbird is not a daily driver. I went bigger on the injectors because, since it's a "fun car", I tend to got WOT quite frequently.
    '88 Thunderbird LX: 306, Edelbrock Performer heads, Comp 266HR cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, Edelbrock 70mm TB, 76mm C&L MAF, 30lb injectors, 2.5" exhaust, AOD with 2800 PI converter, 8.8 with 3.73 gears, 31 spline Traction-Lok, 31 spline Moser axles, 04 Cobra front arms, Maximum Motorsports extreme duty rear arms, subframes.
    '11 Focus, '12 Mustang 3.7, '17 Accord EX-L V6

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