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View Full Version : Toying with T5 swap behind 3.8



Tbird232ci
11-12-2004, 06:31 PM
ive been doing some slight looking around and whatnot for doing this swap, and had a nice discussion about it with Sancho last night

we came to the conclusion that a 5.0 bellhousing will not work for the T5 swap due to the difference in the size of the flywheels, the 3.8L has a larger diameter flywheel that the 5.0 bellhousing will not clear

another issue that Sancho brought to my attention was that the 3.8L bellhousing is 3/4 inch longer than the 5.0's bellhousing, i dont know if this would effect shifter placement or not, or the driveshaft

something else i need to look into is the shifter fork, does this interchange with the 5.0 or is it also a 3.8 only part

just some info for anyone interested

slamedcat
11-12-2004, 06:40 PM
Ford put a five speed behind the 3.8 in the sn95 cars.

Tbird232ci
11-12-2004, 06:49 PM
this i know, but since im going to convert to a 5.0, i dont want to have to buy a complete 3.8L setup, just to pull it out and go with a 5.0 setup, id like to see what parts interchange

TurboCoupe50
11-12-2004, 07:44 PM
Unless the 5.0 flywheel will not bolt to the 3.8 crank or the ballance is different, I see no reason a complete 5.0 setup won't work on a 3.8 fox body. Check to see if the 3.8 & 5.0 AOD flexplates are the same for say '87. If they are, then the 5.0 T5 setup will work no prob.

Tbird232ci
11-12-2004, 11:03 PM
i believe the balance is different, but ill look around and post back with my findings

Tbird232ci
11-12-2004, 11:08 PM
alright, i looked up both flexplates in the allmighty advance auto website, the flexplates have the same diameter, same pitch, same teeth, but are still different, leaving only the balance to make up the difference

TurboCoupe50
11-13-2004, 05:51 AM
alright, i looked up both flexplates in the allmighty advance auto website, the flexplates have the same diameter, same pitch, same teeth, but are still different, leaving only the balance to make up the difference

Well that sucks..... :(

Really you don't have any idea if the 5.0 flywheel will even bolt up to a 3.8. Maybe you could find a Advance or where ever with both in stock and compare. If the weight is of the approxmate same size and location you could still probably use the 5.0 flywheel(assuming it will bolt up). Caution its really tough to tell if bolt patterns are the same, usually there is just one or two bolts that are spaced differently than the others.

cougarman
11-13-2004, 08:05 AM
alright, i looked up both flexplates in the allmighty advance auto website, the flexplates have the same diameter, same pitch, same teeth, but are still different, leaving only the balance to make up the difference

Here you say they are same diameter, if they are in fact the same, you could use the 5.0 bellhousing. :dunno: :)

Tbird232ci
11-13-2004, 09:07 AM
the flexplates are the same diameter, the flywheels are not

the local advance is tough to get help like that from, they are the kind that if youre not buying something, they dont really want to help you, ill see if i can find any other source of information for the balance weights before i resort to pushing my nerves at advance

cougarman
11-13-2004, 09:19 AM
Oh ok, I see. Good luck. :)

TurboCoupe50
11-16-2004, 06:28 PM
the local advance is tough to get help like that from, they are the kind that if youre not buying something, they dont really want to help you, ill see if i can find any other source of information for the balance weights before i resort to pushing my nerves at advance

I believe I still have a 5.0 AOD flexplate out in the garage. I'm sorta freinds with the Mgr at the local Advance(race with her husband). If she has a 3.8 plate in stock, maybe she will let me compare them.

TurboCoupe50
11-18-2004, 08:04 AM
From the info in this thread, looks like the 5.0 flywheel will fit the 3.8 but the ballance is different(at least in the SC). Maybe the SC flywheel will work??? NAAWWW you just want to buy my TC, 5 speed already installed.

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52654

Tbird232ci
11-18-2004, 04:35 PM
its either the local guys or yours, both 5-speeds, so ill have a 5-speed either way!!

i was going to put a 5-speed behind the 3.8L just to keep myself someone content with the cars performance, but i wont need to when i get a 5-speed TC

JeremyB
11-29-2004, 11:30 PM
I'm in the same boat as Tbird232ci. I'd like to swap a T5 in front of my V6, then upgrade to a V8 at a later date. I did some searching on the V6 Mustang boards but didn't find any concrete info that the V6/V8 flywheels have compatible bolt patterns. I've got a friend at Advance Auto who said he will compare the two on Wednesday. Does the SN95 V6 have the same bolt pattern as a Fox T-bird/Cougar V6?

JeremyB
12-02-2004, 10:43 AM
My friend ended up not going in Wednesday. He said he'll check the flywheels, I'm just not sure when.

TurboCoupe50
12-07-2004, 03:33 PM
Being a little bored today(and home sick), I did a little poking around on the net. The statement about the 3.8 bellhousing is correct because the SN95 chassis places the tranny farther back due to shifter location(the SN95 5.0 bell is deeper as well). So these trannys have a longer input than the earlier Fox units.
ok here is what i found out today

94+ t5's have a longer input shaft & bellhousing than the 85-93 ones this goes for all mustangs

94+ v6er's have a 164t 11" flywheel/flexplate i belive the balance on the 94-00 is 34.X ounces and i know the 01+ is neutral balanced

94+ gt's and cobras have a 157t 10" flywheel/flexplate the balance on all 94+ 5.0's is 50 ounce

the supercoupes ran a m5r2 trans and had a 164t 11"flywheel all but the early 89's were neutral balance

the bellhousing's are diff in the starter mounting area to adjust for the size
(ie a 11" 164t flywheel needs a v6 bellhousing and a 10" 157t flywheel needs a gt/cobra bellhousing. the starters are all the same)

you cannot put a v6/sc clutch on a gt/cobra flywheel or vise versa

i'm going to run a 95 gt tranny/bellhousing and a 95 gt flywheel i'm having rebalanced to neutral this allows me to run a $160 fms king cobra clutch whereas i would have to shell out $300+ for a v6 clutch of similar quality :D oh and the 310+ trq rating of the wc gt trans is nice

BTW I copyed this info from a post I found in a Yahoo search of "3.8 bellhousing"

http://www.moderndriveline.com/

JeremyB
12-17-2004, 10:56 AM
While searching, I found this (http://v6power.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30285&highlight=crank+pilot+drilled) post from V6power.net where a guy states that an '86 3.8L Mustang crankshaft might not be drilled for a pilot bushing because no 3.8's had a manual transmission option. This, if true, makes me wonder if my '87 3.8L crank is machined for a pilot bushing.

Also, my friend hasn't verified if the 3.8 and 5.0 flywheels have the same bolt pattern, but a guy on V6power.net says so. Link (http://v6power.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36010)

JeremyB
12-24-2004, 09:41 PM
Well, after having a shop replace the Cougar's rear main seal; I was informed the crank isn't drilled for a pilot bushing. :(

TurboCoupe50
12-24-2004, 09:45 PM
Well, after having a shop replace the Cougar's rear main seal; I was informed the crank isn't drilled for a pilot bushing. :(

UHHH I ain't believing that... The snout on the torque converter has to fit some where....

jcassity
12-25-2004, 02:08 PM
i was going to jump in on starter issues but it looks like its covered. You gotta really make darn sure you got the right "TYPE" of starter with respect to the flex plate and the flywheel or ring gears will be fuggered up as well as starter bendix's.

my 87 coug had a nipple for a pilot bearing and i think it was an E3 casting im pretty sure.

JeremyB
12-26-2004, 07:59 PM
UHHH I ain't believing that... The snout on the torque converter has to fit some where....
Yes, I've yet to take off the transmission myself so I'm ignant in that regard. I didn't realize all the automatic transmission torque converters had snouts on them. The Helm manual agrees too. Looks like the only hurdle left is being able to balance a 5.0L flywheel to 3.8L specs.

Chris1987LX
12-26-2004, 10:05 PM
Here's a pic for reference.

1FSTCAT
12-27-2004, 01:14 PM
According to my information, all AOD's are the same, externally, with the exception of the length difference on the Lincoln/Truck units. Internally, V6 AOD's had less clutches than the 5.0 units.

This tells us, that the bellhousing is the same on the 3.8 and the 5.0. So my answer to your question is: your typical T5 should be fine. You'll have to find the right flywheel, and pinion bearing, yourself. I would think that the 5.0 or the 4 cyl pinion would be fine.

If you want to do this swap inexpensively, I would say to use the stuff from a 4 cyl Mustang T5 or a 5 spd Turbocoupe. That will get you started more quickly, and get you the steeper gearing in the 4 cyl transmission. Again, before you make your decision, you need to find out what size the pinion bearing would be on a 3.8.

Many 5.0 Mustang guys run the 4 cyl T5's, and indicate that they're almost as durable as the V8 T5, if that makes you feel any better. :)

Tbird232ci
12-27-2004, 01:26 PM
wow, long time no see Ed

as for the bellhousings, with the automatics, yes, they are the same, but the 5-speeds are different, the flywheel for the 3.8 is 11", and the bellhousing is made differently so it is able to clear the extra diameter

as for the pilot bearing, if you use a 4-banger T5, use one from a ford probe, a 3.8 stang, use one from that stang, and a 5.0, use one from a 5.0

1FSTCAT
12-27-2004, 02:32 PM
Interesting. So what's with the 3.8L V6 Mustang, 5 speed from 94+? Same deal? Is it a T45 instead of a T5?

Tbird232ci
12-27-2004, 02:37 PM
as far as i know, the 3.8 stangs got T5's, but the input shaft is an akward diameter and longer than a 5.0's

TurboCoupe50
12-27-2004, 07:04 PM
Jeez... It's Ed !!!!!! So How the Hell you been????

For more info on the T5s check out the link, but basically the SN95 bell housings(3.8 & 5.0) are deeper than the Fox Stangs to mount the tranny farther back(shifter placement).

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/09/t5swap/index2.shtml

Tbird232ci
12-27-2004, 09:11 PM
For more info on the T5s check out the link, but basically the SN95 bell housings(3.8 & 5.0) are deeper than the Fox Stangs to mount the tranny farther back(shifter placement).

which is why the input shaft is also longer

Sancho
12-28-2004, 09:12 PM
And causes potential problems... :(

TurboCoupe50
12-28-2004, 09:38 PM
One of my neighbors used a 4 cyl tranny in a '96 3.8 Stang, with a late '80s Probe pilot bearing. Been in for two years now and his kid has wrecked it twice, but the tranny is still shifting just fine.

the_intimidator03
01-06-2005, 04:59 AM
Just kinda curious while we are on this topic.. i have an 84 cougar 3.8 with the C3... how hard would it be to stick a manual 5 speed in it? im thinkin a floor mount clutch adjuster. T5's are pretty easy to pick up depending on which vehicle i need it from.. so anyone have an idea?

Tbird232ci
01-06-2005, 10:13 AM
thats what this 4 page discussion is about...

JeremyB
02-02-2005, 04:52 PM
I went by a machine shop this morning and the guy there said he should be able to rebalance a 3.8 flywheel to the 5.0 spec for ~$100. Now I need to scare up some flywheels. So...94-99/00 Mustang 3.8s have the same imbalance as 83-88 Tbird/Cougar 3.8s, correct?

Jeremy in Indy
03-16-2005, 06:14 PM
We want UPDATES!!!

JeremyB
03-16-2005, 07:23 PM
We want UPDATES!!!
I still haven't gotten confimation the 94-99/00 3.8 flywheels have the same balance as my '87 3.8.
Also, are all 83-88 3.8 Tbird/Cougar flywheels balanced the same? I need to find a flywheel to balance to 50oz.

Bird351
04-24-2005, 12:54 AM
Bumped by request, sort of.

JeremyB
04-24-2005, 07:17 PM
I'm still waiting for the junkyard to pull a flexplate for me. It has been 3+ weeks. Hopefully I can pick it up early this week.

Bird351
04-24-2005, 10:18 PM
Going to do some shoosting if it takes longer than a month..? :p

JeremyB
04-26-2005, 09:06 PM
Dropped by my local SVT dealer and picked up a 5.0 flywheel. Part #M-6375-B302. There were no flywheels at any of the local junkyards. Car-part found a $40 flywheel, but shipping was to be $25-30 and resurfacing is another $25. I paid $105 for the new one.
http://www.griffshp.com/belchja/302flywheel%20002.jpg

If only the junkyard would pull the '87 flexplate. :rolleyes:

tstone
05-02-2005, 02:22 PM
I'm glad to see someone is throwing this idea around. I am thinking about doing the same thing, so I can have a drivetrain for a V8 later. Emissions tests around here keep me from the V8 swap for a few more years. However with the dual exhaust, a manual trans might be the best performance upgrade I can make.

Check this out: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=7970677757&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

A 3.8L engine from an F100 pickup from 1982. It has some strange looking valve covers and a manual trans bell! The site says 4 speed OD manual, which is probably an SROD like on the Mustangs from '79-83. So then I looked at the almighty partsamerica site and sure enough, there is a flywheel you can buy to mate a manual to a 3.8. Just get it ordered for an '82 F-100.

So again what's the deal about the crank not being drilled for a pilot bearing? I'm not aware of any changes from year to year. Check:

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/ar90134.htm

You could probably order a pilot bearing for that truck and use it on your engine. Then install your clutch & T5.

JeremyB
05-09-2005, 04:58 PM
A 3.8L engine from an F100 pickup from 1982. It has some strange looking valve covers and a manual trans bell! The site says 4 speed OD manual, which is probably an SROD like on the Mustangs from '79-83. So then I looked at the almighty partsamerica site and sure enough, there is a flywheel you can buy to mate a manual to a 3.8. Just get it ordered for an '82 F-100.

I thought you had saved the day when I saw that. If you look closer at partsamerica's site, you'll notice the flywheels are 164T. Fox 5.0 T5 bellhousings only work with 157T flywheels. D'oh.

I got my money back on the flexplate I "bought" but never received. (I drew the line at a month :rolleyes:). I bought another one from a salvage yard located by car-part.com. It should arrive Wednesday.

srv1
05-09-2005, 07:26 PM
This is an excellent thread. Have any of you wandered off into the Ranger with 3.0? Or better yet the 2.9/4.0? Those trucks had sticks in them. But everyone is wondering about the hole drilled out for the pilot bearing on the crank. I would research that first before anything.

James

TurboCoupe50
05-09-2005, 08:51 PM
This is an excellent thread. Have any of you wandered off into the Ranger with 3.0? Or better yet the 2.9/4.0? Those trucks had sticks in them. But everyone is wondering about the hole drilled out for the pilot bearing on the crank. I would research that first before anything.

James

The hole for the pilot bearing ain't a issue... It's there...

tstone
05-09-2005, 10:34 PM
The issue with the 3.0 and 4.0 is that they are 60 degree V6's and use a Mazda manual trans behind them. I think the bellhousing much like the C3/A4LD on those vehicles, which will not fix a small block pattern.

i noticed that partsamerica site says the manual 3.8 flywheel for an '82 truck is an "E8" part, which doesn't make any sense

Whatever the case, we still need a part number on that 3.8/manual bell housing. Mustang and truck SROD's were a little different, so this site says:

http://www.motivegear.com/tech_info/tranny_guide/tranny_guide.html

But are the input shafts different sizes? Will the truck bell clear under the firewall if it's a different part?

I may consider an SROD swap if my AOD will ever break.

srv1
05-09-2005, 10:35 PM
The hole for the pilot bearing ain't a issue... It's there...

I must have missed that. Now another question is what about a Lakewood bellhousing? They look a little bigger. Anyone try those or something similar?

James

srv1
05-09-2005, 10:38 PM
The issue with the 3.0 and 4.0 is that they are 60 degree V6's and use a Mazda manual trans behind them. I think the bellhousing much like the C3/A4LD on those vehicles, which will not fix a small block pattern.

i noticed that partsamerica site says the manual 3.8 flywheel for an '82 truck is an "E8" part, which doesn't make any sense

Whatever the case, we still need a part number on that 3.8/manual bell housing. Mustang and truck SROD's were a little different, so this site says:

http://www.motivegear.com/tech_info/tranny_guide/tranny_guide.html

But are the input shafts different sizes? Will the truck bell clear under the firewall if it's a different part?

I may consider an SROD swap if my AOD will ever break.

I didnt mean bellhousings I meant flywheels. Sometimes Ford keeps the same bolt pattern for the flywheel.

James

tstone
05-09-2005, 10:46 PM
Different number of teeth, much less according to the partsamerica (135 or 138 teeth for Ranger).

Looks like they are 0 balanced.

Bird351
05-09-2005, 10:48 PM
Sorry if this is a stupid question or something that's been brought up already, but it's been a f'ed up night.. and I'm not able to read this entire thread in one sitting.

What manual tranny gets used with a 4.2 V6 in the later F150s?

JeremyB
05-10-2005, 12:25 AM
What manual tranny gets used with a 4.2 V6 in the later F150s
It is a M5OD R2. It uses a hydraulic clutch. Gear ratios are below.
1st 3.90
2nd 2.25
3rd 1.50
4th 1.00
5th 0.80
rev 3.39


17 13/16 inches from the bellhousing to the center of the shifter lever.
The T5 has a bellhousing-shifter length is about 26.4". The M5OD length sounds a little short, but that's what was on the forum.



If the F100 bellhousing is the same length as the Fox Mustang bellhousing, the SROD might fit without too much hassle. One site I saw said you had to modify the shifter handle to account for the shorter bellhousing-shifter length of the SROD

tstone
05-11-2005, 12:06 AM
It may not be that short. Have you seen how far back the engine sits in an F-150 bay? How about how long that diagonally mounted shifter is?

On another note I drove a custom ordered white, bare bones, stripped down 4.6L M5OD F-150. That thing hauled ass through 1st gear, at least.

An SROD in a 3.8 fox car would be interesting. But who wants an SROD? I'd only put one in if my AOD goes south.

JeremyB
05-11-2005, 03:33 PM
Yeah, I think an SROD conversion would be more of a "I did it 'cause I could" type of modification. You could also throw in a toploader, since they share the same case. You'd have to use an SROD or Lakewood bellhousing to make use of a clutch cable setup. Some info here (http://www.toploadertransmissions.com/install.html), here (http://www.davidkeetoploaders.com/conversions.htm), and a Mustang T5 to toploader swap here (http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/98378/).

JeremyB
05-11-2005, 08:29 PM
The '87 3.8 flexplate arrived in the mail today. My dial calipers have taken a vacation to an unknown location, so I had to use more primitive means to compare the two. I used drill bits to see if the bolt holes are the same size. The 5.0 flywheel fits 7/16" bit cleanly, the 3.8 fits a 13/32". The 7/16" bit will not fit into the 3.8 flexplate. Also, I could not get the two bolt patterns to line up exactly. I could get them to match up very closely, but never exactly. I eyeballed the crankshaft interface to ring gear dimension and they looked to be the same. I'm going to buy another set of dial calipers and measure again to get something more accurate.