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thundergrowl
06-13-2005, 07:09 PM
To carry on with the ideas in Crystal's thread (http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?p=32254#post32254) without hijacking it:

Here is a picture of my handcontrols
http://205.251.38.200:8080/images/TBirdSport/015_15_TN.jpg
Here's how they work; Gas - twist the handle and move a cable that is connected to the throttle at the throttle body. Brakes - The handcontrolls are connected to the steering column (where the column is connected under the dash) and a lever comes off the end near the twist grip that pushes down on the brake peddle when you push down on the handle.

If that's not clear I'll attempt a drawing.

My idea would be to put a clutch lever, as on a motorcycle, on the handcontrols. I think it would have to go there since under braking I would need to activate the clutch, break, and control the steering.

There has to be a solution 'cause I know there are people in wheelchairs riding on motorcycles that have side cars or have been converted to threewheelers.

slamedcat
06-13-2005, 07:48 PM
Might be a little exspensive but have you looked into air shifters?

Here (http://www.hardracing.com/MPS%20RACING.htm) is one for a motorcycle.

nirvanagod
06-13-2005, 08:01 PM
Just a repost from my idea in Crystal's thread : Modified F1 paddle shifters, bi-directional. Pull toward you to shift up or down, push away to engage the clutch. Paddles would work in opposite of each other when you shifted through the gears.

Nate
06-13-2005, 09:31 PM
i'v seen aftermarket paddle shifters, like a f1 car. think they have some actuators or something... never looked into it, but maybe that might be easyer.

thundergrowl
06-14-2005, 07:12 AM
Might be a little exspensive but have you looked into air shifters?

How would you hook that up to a car trans? A motorcycle shifts up and down (one dimentional motion) while to shift a car you have to have a side to side motion and a forward to backward (two dimentional) motion. I don't know anything about motorcycle transmissions but in a car there are 2 (3 speed) or 3 (4,5 speed) levers.

In my stepson's 3.1, 5 speed Pontiac Tempest he has a shifter cable and a lever select cable. The forward to back motion moves the shifter cable while the side to side moves the lever select cable.

Maybe a couple step motors could be hooked up to reproduce the motions - each with 3 positions. The only problem I can think of with this solution would be that the shifter select motor would have to return to the middle position before the lever select motor could move. Am I reinventing the F1 paddles?

I think I'll do some searching to see what I can find on the subject.

slamedcat
06-14-2005, 08:14 AM
I know I have seen air shifters in funny cars before but don't know how well they would work on the street. Or how they work.

MasterBlaster
06-14-2005, 08:27 AM
A motorcycle shifts up and down (one dimentional motion)Well, technically it's a rotary motion. The foot lever turns an internal drum with slots in the outer surface that engage pins on the backs of the shift forks, moving them back and forth as needed. Might be able to create something similar for the front/back side/side of a regular lever? Or use a trans with the levers coming out the side of the case.


How about a Volkswagen "auto-stick"?

Yeah, I know it had a torque converter, but it also had a small clutch controlled by a big vacuum can, disengaged by any pressure on the shift lever, re-engaged by a calibrated orifice.

A quick tour through Google's world showed links by the hundred for "hand controls" "manual transmission".

TurboCoupe50
06-14-2005, 08:54 AM
For what ever system that is chosen(air, hydraulic, electric), the clutch control could(should?) be mounted on the shifter for one hand operation.

The hardest part will be getting the clutch travel figured out, since its not just a engaged/disengaged deal.

thundergrowl
06-14-2005, 09:03 AM
A special sensor in the shift lever knob detects the driver's hand, and a pneumatic servo unit depresses the clutch. A position sensor tells the system when the driver has put the transmission in gear, holding the clutch down until a slight pressure is applied to the gas pedal. This brings the clutch pedal to just below the engagement point in its throw. As soon as the driver begins to accelerate, a proportioning mechanism, working in conjunction with pneumatic solenoids and a microprocessor, combine the inputs of speed, accelerator pressure, and vacuum to produce a smooth, reliable clutch-in operation. Clutching style (quick/sporty to slow/smooth) can be tailored to match the habits and preferences of the client, so that the original "feel" and driving characteristics of the car remain unchanged.


Sounds complicated to me :(

MasterBlaster
06-14-2005, 09:08 AM
Sounds complicated to me Very Volkswagenish, just with sensors and computers.

thundergrowl
06-14-2005, 09:30 AM
How hard would it be to press in the clutch on a car with a hand lever like on a motorcycle? Would I need some kind of force multiplier?

Haystack
06-14-2005, 09:35 AM
its shouldnt be overly hard. You could always get a power assist like on the brakes. A motorcycle is too hard but it is alot smaller. Even still it couldnt be too hard. It wasent on my mazda b2000 with a varient of the t-5. It used the m-5 that they put in the supercoupes I think. I'll bet you could get a clutch power assist and just put a small lever *like* the one on a motorcycle and use that one.

turbo83coupe
06-14-2005, 11:39 AM
If I recall correctly, I seen a thread about the F1 shifter on this bourd.... maybe the old site? And somebody had a link for a kit to make it possible in our cars.... I unno, for soem reason I swear I seen that. I have absolutly no clue if this is possible, but what about those new "sport shifters" they are sticking in everything... It isnt edzactly the same though...

nirvanagod
06-14-2005, 12:58 PM
This isn't quite what I had in mind, but could be applied. I found this pic in an article at howstuffworks.com (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/sequential-gearbox2.htm). It's of the shifter in a champ car, still a manual tranny, but it's a sequential one. Now i'm not sure about the presence of a clutch, but this, combined with perhaps electronic buttons for braking and acceleration located on the steering wheel (think cruise control setup on wheel for our cars) would prolly be a route to take to achive the desired effect.

slamedcat
06-14-2005, 03:15 PM
If I recall correctly, I seen a thread about the F1 shifter on this bourd....

It was actualy made to work with the AOD-E. Our cars have just an AOD in them.


http://www.twistmachine.com/products/
http://www.baumannengineering.com/tcs.htm

Use these two product with each other plus swap in an AOD-E and you have an F1 style setup.

turbo83coupe
06-14-2005, 03:32 PM
slamedcat- that is what I was tlaking about. I did not rleize what edzactly it was, just remembered the paddles.

Would that be considered "manuel" enough??

Thunder Chicken
06-14-2005, 07:06 PM
If you were gonna go that way an AOD or AOD-E with a full manual valve body and an electric OD on-off switch would probably be the best (and cheapest) bet. You could even use the stock column shift so save a helluva lot of money and keep everything up by the wheel

Ifixyawata
06-14-2005, 08:00 PM
Like I posted in Crystal's thread, similar to what Carmen said, too: Some sort of newer electronically controled auto tranny with electronic shifting. I know there's some of the 4R70W's that, with the addition of some electronics can be paddle-shifted.

thundergrowl
08-24-2005, 01:21 PM
Does anyone here have a picture or diagram of the clutch pedal setup and where the linkage connects to the trans? I'm assuming the TC is a cable setup as opposed to hydraulic.

I'm not ready to let this idea die just yet ;)

Thunder Chicken
08-24-2005, 02:55 PM
I don't have any pictures, but the 83-86 TC is cable while the 87-88 is hydraulic. The 5.0 Mustang is cable as well - I'm unaware of any hydraulic bellhousing that would work on a 5.0

Haystack
08-24-2005, 02:57 PM
what about an inline 6 tranny? Dont they bolt up? My dad has a hydralic clutch on his 300.

slamedcat
08-24-2005, 04:16 PM
The trans thats in the SC arn't they hydrolic and the 3.8 and 5.0 have the same bolt pattern.

Tbird232ci
08-24-2005, 05:14 PM
The trans thats in the SC arn't they hydrolic and the 3.8 and 5.0 have the same bolt pattern.
they use a hydrolic clutch

its a mazda tranny, M5R2, and the shifter location is about 3 inches farther back than in a fox

thundergrowl
08-24-2005, 07:30 PM
OK so I know I'm dealing with a hydraulic clutch. The question now is how to hook up the clutch? I guess there are three options...or more.

1. Hook up another hydraulic level on the handcontrols. This one seems the most logical but I'm not sure how to hook it up. Basically I need the clutch pedal and the handcontrol clutch to do the samething independantly of each other. Sort of two parallel hydraulic clutches. Can you have two levers activating the same hydraulic system or will I need two systems? What happens when you activate the two levers at the same time?

2. Use a cable on the handcontrols and go to the clutch pedal. The cable would be hooked up in series with the hydraulic clutch.

3. Use a cable and bypass the hydraulic clutch altogether. Connect the cable directly to the transmission.

Which system will be easiest to use considering I'm using my hand - and probably only two fingers. Also there is only about 1-1.5 inches of travel on the cable.

I really need to see what I'm dealing with.

thundergrowl
09-01-2005, 10:16 AM
OK! I think I got this figured out. First an explaination of how the hand controls are set up now.

thundergrowl
09-01-2005, 10:19 AM
So here's the idea:

Pulling on the clutch lever pushes the lever down toward the clutch. The length X would determine the mechanical advantage and travel required to push the clutch in.

Haystack
09-01-2005, 11:35 AM
That would give you the travel that you need. But the cable would be fairly hard to pull. What you would have to do is make it hydrolic and the hook the cable up the the hydrolic clutch. That way it would be some easier.

thundergrowl
09-01-2005, 11:56 AM
I agree that would be the more eligant solution but how would you hook it up to the hydraulic clutch?

What I would ideally like to do is fine a way to activate the hydraulic clutch's master cylinder without actually moving the clutch pedal. Can that be done?

Haystack
09-01-2005, 01:20 PM
you prolly could with some kind of stepper motor..... The biggest problem I would see with that would be that it would burn up sooner or later. Also you would need to finely tune it so that it didnt jerk at all or move very fast. Basically you could just hook it up to a hydrolic clutch the same way that a cable pedaled hydrolic clutch would go. Honestaly I dont know all of the mechanics behind it. But it could be done. The electric motors would be my first choice. You could always use it like a remote control. Just have it like a throttle up and down on a model airplane/car. All that you would have to do is get a really good smooth switch with an even better high tourque motor. The problem being, that high tourque motors would be really slow. To speed them up you would have to make some kind of gear box. I dunno. Just shooting out some ideas for you.
*edit*
That would be perfect. Rather then a cable driven extension, you could just have a stationary switch. Not quite on or off switch, but one like the dimmer switch in our cars that would positon the motor at certain points. That way you could give the car, shall we say 10% throttle and still floor it without haveing to touch the clutch and it could stay like that. That would make it easy to shift too. I dunno though.

thundergrowl
09-01-2005, 01:24 PM
Thanks! Ideas are always welcome. They make me think :)

MasterBlaster
09-03-2005, 09:08 AM
What I would ideally like to do is fine a way to activate the hydraulic clutch's master cylinder without actually moving the clutch pedal. Can that be done?Hmmm...
Very small vacuum booster (Honda/Toyota?) somehow mounted under dash?
Hand-grip lever pulls cable, cable turns short crank, crank pushes plunger into rear of booster, booster pushes pedal (or clutch master cylinder directly, but no more pedal), master moves fluid to slave at clutch, clutch disengages. Light effort, variable movement.
Hmmmm.......

thundergrowl
09-12-2005, 01:53 PM
Little Help? I need someone with a T5 in their car, a bathroom scale, and a measuring tape.

What I need is the force to push the clutch in: place the bathroom scale on the clutch pedal and push it in measuring the force in lbs as you're pushing the clutch in.

Also I need the distance the clutch pedal travels. Measure from the top of the pedal to floor with the clutch fully released and again with the pedal fully to the floor. What is the difference?

Haystack
09-12-2005, 02:08 PM
why not just ghetto rid up a brade cylinder from a motorcycle? I think that that would work best. I cant tell you how hard it would be though. Sorry. good luck

TurboCoupe50
09-12-2005, 02:47 PM
Little Help? I need someone with a T5 in their car, a bathroom scale, and a measuring tape.

What I need is the force to push the clutch in: place the bathroom scale on the clutch pedal and push it in measuring the force in lbs as you're pushing the clutch in.

Also I need the distance the clutch pedal travels. Measure from the top of the pedal to floor with the clutch fully released and again with the pedal fully to the floor. What is the difference?

Since I have the car, it'd make sense for me to do it... Back shortly.

OK.. the height of the clutch pedal is 7", thickness is close to an inch so actual travel is 6 1/4". As a point of reference the brake pedal is 5 1/2" from the floor. Getting a pressure reading was kinda tough, as the scales hung up on the brake pedal. But slipping the scales onto the pedal after it is floored required 45lb of force to keep it depressed. The pressure seems pretty much equal through the complete cycle.

thundergrowl
09-13-2005, 11:20 AM
OK! here's what I know:

- 45lb of force to move 6.25"
- The hand lever I have pulls the cable about 1"
- The lever moves 2.5-3"

I'll save you the math but it works out that I'll have to pull the lever with a force of around 100lb to push the clutch in. I may have strong hands but I don't think they're quite that strong.

I'll do the math in more detail later when I'm home but for now it looks like it's back to the drawing board :(

The 5.0/AOD swap may come more sooner than later.

Haystack
09-13-2005, 11:29 AM
I still say you try the master cylinder thing.

TurboCoupe50
09-13-2005, 11:51 AM
Yea 100lbs is gonna be tough.... I was playin' around with the scales and can squeeze them to approx 175lb using both hands. While I ain't the strongest, I'm not wimp material either.

slamedcat
09-21-2005, 11:49 PM
Was pondering this subject while staring at the celing fan at work.

What about using something along the lines of a door popper solinoid. What is the life of one of these.

Not sure on how this would work or how to rig it up.

thundergrowl
09-22-2005, 10:30 AM
Was pondering this subject while staring at the celing fan at work.That's Great :giggle:

I'm not sure how it would work either.

I'm just waiting to get the car now. When I do get it, I'll experiment with levers for the handcontrols. If it can be done I think it would be best.

If it requires too much effort to push the clutch I may attempt to install a power booster and master cylinder from a sprint, if there's enough room for it under the hood.

If that fails, I still have a good 5.0/AOD combo just sitting in the driveway.

BTW here's a picture of the car. The sale is just about done - just waiting on a letter from Ford.
http://205.251.38.200:8080/images/TC/P3200061.JPG

Haystack
09-22-2005, 11:09 AM
brake booster using vacume would be perfect I think. That would be the best solution.

thundergrowl
09-22-2005, 11:12 AM
brake booster using vacume would be perfect I think. That would be the best solution.
Hey!, I got the idea from you...and MasterBlaster. Thanks!

thundergrowl
11-17-2005, 02:55 PM
UPDATE: I've removed the handcontrols from the sport and I've gotten the clutch lever from my cousin and I have it on the handcontrols. Tomorrow I'll install it on the TC. Here's what is looks like so far.

Haystack
11-18-2005, 10:21 AM
master blaster brought it up first. He is such a smart ass know it all. j/k. Lets see how it fits!

thundergrowl
11-18-2005, 02:27 PM
Lets see how it fits!

OK. I have them installed minus the cables hooked up. The first pic is the graphed on HD clutch lever, second is how it's hooked up to the brake and the third is how it's attached to the steering column.

TurboCoupe50
11-18-2005, 06:39 PM
So whats the plan to hook up the cable to the clutch???

Thunder Chicken
11-18-2005, 07:43 PM
I've a question: With one hand on the hand control and one on the shifter, who's steering? :hick:

thundergrowl
11-18-2005, 07:52 PM
I've got a few ideas on the clutch hookup including the levers I've illustrated above and a hookup with angle iron that pivots with the clutch if I can get the cable up there. I got the angle iron idea from someone but I can't remember who.


I've a question: With one hand on the hand control and one on the shifter, who's steering? :hick:

I'm gonna train my d!ck to handle the steering. :D

TurboCoupe50
11-19-2005, 08:40 AM
I'm gonna train my d!ck to handle the steering. :D

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

I don't wanna drive that car no more ... :rollin:

Haystack
11-19-2005, 09:24 AM
real men dont need no steering wheels. Maybe if you connected the clutch level to the steering wheel somehow?

87thunderbirdBlackJack
11-20-2005, 08:14 PM
have the clutch on the shifter and throttle on the stering wheel

shame302
11-20-2005, 09:17 PM
have the clutch on the shifter and throttle on the stering wheel

actually switch that around and that wouldnt be a bad idea. my buddy has a hand throttle control on the shifter of his wrangler for rock crawling...

Thunder Chicken
11-20-2005, 10:46 PM
A throttle on the steering wheel would be very difficult, if not impossible. Not only for installing it (how would you prevent the cable from binding when you turned the wheel), but for driving - imagine cranking the wheel from lock to lock while trying to hang onto the throttle. A clutch on the wheel would be even more difficult because it would require a lot of force to release the clutch, which would hinder steering.

thundergrowl
12-01-2005, 08:33 PM
I finally got back at this tonight. Took out the front seat and got my huge head under the dash. :)

From what I can tell, the best place to hook up the cable will be around the peg on the clutch lever where the interlock switch connects. There's room there to rap around the cable.

The peg moves 1 inch when the clutch is press down - the same amount of travel I have on the clutch cable.

The next problem will be to find a place on the support assy to attach the cable housing. It needs to be at the right angle to allow easy movement of the clutch.

Is there anyone here who has done the 5 speed swap? Did you have to remove the fuse panel to get at the clutch pedal? Man, there's not much room up there. I may even have to get a drill up there to attach the cable. :(

BTW: I also got the trottle cable out through the firewall but I don't have it hooked up yet. I wanted to figure out what to do with the clutch cable first.

TurboCoupe50
12-01-2005, 08:47 PM
I finally got back at this tonight. Man, there's not much room up there. :(

.

Ahhh you noticed that??? Now you know why I was sputtering when I installed the ABS unit...

But did ya notice ALL the nuts/bolts were in place???(OK it may have been missing a screw or two in the dash trim)

CougarSE
12-01-2005, 10:46 PM
I've been thinking alot about this, ever since you first mentioned it. This is my plan for your problem.

A throttle lever mounted on the shifter, smaller than the harley one. Maybe a bicycle brake lever. That would give you enough leverage to move the throttle easily with a very short throw. The cable pull may not be as much as the gas pedals but you could rig up a bell crank setup that would increase the travel of the cable. You still would easily be able to pull the handle.

A solution for the clutch would be one of those shifter knobs for line lock or trans brakes. You know the ones with the single button on them. Wire that up so it controlls a large soleniod. Maybe an expensive door popper those mini truck guys use. Yes your clutch would be an On/Off switch but this is all I can think of aside from two levers on the shifter. You could rig up a timer that would slowly release the soleniod, Or use a r/c sail boat servo. Some of those things can push/pull over 100lbs. That time release would give you a smooth release of the clutch. If you could somehow manage two levers on the shifter you could have one of them control a potentiometer wich in turn could controll the full swing of the servo giving you full control of the clutch.

I think you will come to find out even with what I'm asuming a strong grip you will not be able to disengage the clutch with your setup. Grip the clutch pedal arm up by the master cylinder. I'm betting you wont be able to push it back comortably even with your full body pressing, Let alone just your wrist. That harley lever provides some leverage but nothing like the clutch pedal.




Madd MsPaint skillz

Thunder Chicken
12-01-2005, 11:36 PM
I had considered the solenoid option as well, but as you said, the clutch would either be on or off, and this would make driving on public roads impossible. It would also be very hard on the tranny and driveline.

One thing you might be able to do, though, is rig up either an electric, hydraulic, or vacumm assist (vacuum being a remote option on your boosted car, unless you installed a vacuum pump). If you used a solenoid, for example, you could use one that is not quite strong enough to pull the clutch by itself, but you could help it with your hand lever. Put the button on the shifter as shown above, so you could activate it whenever you reached for the clutch. This would give you the benefit of being able to "meter" the clutch application so you could take off and shift smoothly with reduced effort to apply the clutch.

Haystack
12-01-2005, 11:56 PM
I think what he has so far is the closest and best thing. A vacume assist, like the brake booster, is the best I can think of. I cant think of anything that would work better and would be cheaper. If you have ever tried your brakes with no vacum line on, I think that is more then the clutch pedal.

He could always just lengthen the clutch lever, and that alone would multiply the force. Its not going to be that bad if he does it right, which I think he will. Bounce any ideas you get off of us though.

thundergrowl
12-22-2005, 10:42 AM
I haven't given up on this idea just yet!

I've spent hours on my back staring up at the clutch workings under the dash. I've gotten several ideas on how to hook up the clutch but there just isn't enough room under the dash to get it to work. I may have to go back to my original idea of hooking the clutch hand cable to a lever system to push the clutch.

I've also been thinking about a power assist system to help pull the clutch cable. I found these handcontrols that use a vacuum assist on the trottle cable for people with weak hands or get tired on long drives.
http://www.drivingaids.com/gallery/dad91.gif

In the picture I can see what looks like a spherical vacuum canister, some vacuum lines, and a canister on the cable assemble that has, what looks like, connections for the vacuum lines.

I'm guessing the dumbdown version of how this works is - it takes vacuum from the car and puts it inside the canister on the cable which helps pull the cable.

I'm thinking that since this system was designed for the trottle, it won't be enough assist to significantly help the clutch. The cable would be to slight also.

Does anyone here understand the math envolved in designing a vacuum assist system? I'm thinking it has something to do with the diameter of the canister (or cross-sectional area) and the PSI of vacuum.

thundergrowl
12-22-2005, 10:58 AM
He he! look what I just found (http://www.amphicar.net/minnow/controls_of.htm)

TurboCoupe50
12-22-2005, 06:13 PM
He he! look what I just found (http://www.amphicar.net/minnow/controls_of.htm)
WOW.. thats a slick setup...

thundergrowl
12-22-2005, 09:42 PM
I don't know why, but I was thinking that the master cylinder/ vacuum booster had to be connected to the firewall. I never though it could go somewhere else like where the battery is now and relocate the battery to the trunk. :dunno:

Haystack
12-22-2005, 10:01 PM
You could prolly fit it in the fender well area too.

thundergrowl
12-23-2005, 08:16 AM
You could prolly fit it in the fender well area too.

That's a good idea! Thanks! :)

If I remember correctly, there is a vacuum canister on the PS behind the wheel. Can I take my Vacuum source from there?

...it might be a problem getting the cable there thought. The straighter the cable the easier it would be to pull.

I'll just hook it up under the hood first for testing purposes then I'll figure out where it will live.

I'll get right at it the first warm day we get after I get over my Christmas hangover. :drink: :singing carols:

TurboCoupe50
12-23-2005, 09:38 AM
You need to take vac off at a point that is fed from a larger hose 1/4" or so... Also a check valve in the line will be of the utmost importance, don't want to blow it full of boost, then try to use the clutch...

87fox351
12-27-2005, 02:53 PM
Here is the solution for those wanting to use hydraulic clutch actuation but without the required bellhousing adaption to use the slave cylinder: A mcleod hydraulic throwout bearing. It replaces the regular throwout bearing and lets you use your normal t5 bellhousing just like normal. You get rid of the clutch arm and run the lines to a hydraulic master cylinder actuated by whatever means you require...electric etc.

I was about to order one of these for my failed GM T-56 six speed behind a ford 351w experiment.

http://www.mcleodind.com/cgi-bin/fccgi.exe?w3exec=w3ezmenudriver&menuvalue=38&currmenuid=WMM&src1=/catalog_htm/2003cat.htm&w3hostname=MCLEOD

Later,
Aaron

Thunder Chicken
12-27-2005, 06:58 PM
87fox351: The 87-88 Turbo Coupes have a hydraulic clutch from the factory. No conversion necessary.

Be nice to see that 351-powered, T-56 car of yours tho ;)

thundergrowl
01-27-2006, 12:23 PM
I'm still researching this project and I have several ideas that I may try.

I did read online that there was a study done by some tech school where they created a set of handcontrols and didn't use a power assist. They did say that the user would need strong arms, which I do. In light of this I'm going to try again to hook up my clutch cable to the clutch pedal without a power adder. AKA plan A.

Plan B, C, D, E... :) require knowing something about hydraulics.

I've been doing some reading and stumbled across intensifiers (http://www.machinedesign.com/BDE/FLUID/bdefp5/bdefp5_2.html) but the practicallity of it is beyond me. If I read it right, a secondary hydraulic pressure line boosts the primary presure. Is this a linear relation? Can anyone here enlighten me?

Also, I found this site about 4x4 trucks and changing Broncos over to hydraulic brake boosters (http://www.4x4review.com/tech/hydroboost.asp). I'm wondering if this would work for the clutch as well. I think the regular vacuum booster won't fit under the hood. It would seem that here the Hydraulic line is boosting the mechanical pressure on the master cylinder.

If no one here can help me, I may have to visit a local hydraulic shop and get some expert advice.

I'm hoping to get at this in the next week or so.

EDIT: Hmmmm! Something to read! (http://www.mico.com/litpdf/84-001-001.pdf)
EDIT: Somemore reading (http://www.uchsc.edu/atp/library/fastfacts/hand_controls.htm)

thundergrowl
02-17-2006, 08:41 AM
I've got all the parts I need to give this a go.

I'm going to attempt my first idea.
http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3415&stc=1&d=1125587888
I'll do a rough fabrication first and if it works good I'll get my buddy "Enos the machinist" to make it pretty.

I hope to have it done this weekend. I'll post pictures when it's done.

Funky Cricket
02-17-2006, 11:16 AM
i have thought about this a few times since you started researching this. an ex GF had a mom that drove a car with hand controls, and the trick is, you have to be able to do 5 things, with 2 hands (steer, shift, clutch, brake, and gas) 4 of which are "analog" and one can be "on/off" (shifting) and for the life of me there has to be a way to use radio controlled tech to do most of this with some analog switches and actuators. but it would be mighty complicated.

I still don't see how to steer and shift at the same time, whilst doing the stopping and going with the left hand :P

I don't know enough electronics, but someone has to have a multi controler set up for this somewhere... it is a very interesting puzzle.

having a paddle set like the wrc guys would own, but wouldhave to be modified to a button clutch (again, the hard on/off that would eat a normal clutch)..

thundergrowl
02-17-2006, 12:21 PM
the trick is, you have to be able to do 5 things, with 2 hands (steer, shift, clutch, brake, and gas)

You are absolutely right!

I think it's easy to handle the clutch, brake, and gas with one hand. Of these three things, you are usually only doing two at a time, gas - clutch or brake - clutch.

The only time I can think of that I would be using all three at the same time is starting off on a hill. I could hold the brake so the car doesn't roll while I'm giving gas and letting out clutch to start moving forward.

What I'm thinking is that for the time that my right hand leaves the wheel to shift, I can handle the steering with the thumb on my left hand. I steer with my thumb now while I'm changing the radio station, adjusting the heater, and so on. It shouldn't be too much of a strech to do this while shifting.

thundergrowl
02-20-2006, 06:59 AM
With it being +7*C here Saturday morning, I went to the garage and started working on this. I got the fabrication done and tried the clutch. The handle moved quite easily but when I looked at the clutch pedal it was only moving about 1/4 the way down.

I moved the point where I attached the cable to the lever so I would get more travel on the clutch. The clutch moved about half way down this time but I had to pull as hard as I could on the lever to get it down. :(

I had a couple ideas what was making it so hard to move but it was getting close to suppertime and the bolt I was using to attach the cable to the lever broke. I decided to wait for another day to continue with experimenting.

CougarSE
02-20-2006, 11:01 AM
Like I said before, you have no mechanical advantage with that setup.

thundergrowl
02-20-2006, 11:20 AM
Like I said before, you have no mechanical advantage with that setup.

You're right! but I had to try the cheepest/easiest solution first.

I still want to tweek the handcontrols to see what I can get out of it. I did notice a couple things that, if fixed them, would make pulling the lever easier...but probably not easy enough.

Then, I'd like to experiment with different master/slave cylinders to see if I can get the desired effect with that.

Question for hydraulic people: What will make the clutch easier to push; bigger master (bore) and/or smaller slave or smaller master and/or bigger slave? I'm thinking bigger master bore and smaller slave bore would make the clutch easier to push, am I right? Stock is probably a 1:1 ratio between the master and the slave. If I went with a 3:1 or 5:1 bore ratio between the cylinders would make the clutch a lot easier. If my physics is right, a small force over a big area means a larger force over a smaller area.

Com'on Oldraven! Isn't this what you do for living?

TurboCoupe50
02-20-2006, 06:34 PM
The large bore M/C-small slave will be harder to operate, as it will increase the travel of the slave in relation to the movement of the M/C.

Thunder Chicken
02-20-2006, 08:35 PM
What Tom said. Just think of your brakes - you move the small bore M/C an inch or two applying moderate force, and in turn the pistons in the calipers move a fraction of an inch, but they exert a whole lotta force.

thundergrowl
02-21-2006, 09:28 AM
I thought about the "travel" issue after my last post.

So, no matter what I do with the combination of M/C and S/C, in order to keep the same clutch movement and pedal movement, the force to press the clutch will be the same?

I diffinently need a power adder!

TurboCoupe50
02-21-2006, 01:41 PM
I thought about the "travel" issue after my last post.

So, no matter what I do with the combination of M/C and S/C, in order to keep the same clutch movement and pedal movement, the force to press the clutch will be the same?

I diffinently need a power adder!

Yup... You are gonna need a vac or hydraulic booster of some type..

thundergrowl
02-23-2006, 08:16 AM
I got a "somewhat" new idea last night. I'm no masterblaster when it comes to diagrams but see the attached.

Remove the hydraulic line at the slave and extended it to a 2nd slave.
Used the 2nd slave to push in the brake master cylinder.
Tee together the two brake lines from the master and take them back to the slave on the clutch.
An electric vacuum pump supplies vacuum to the booster.When I'm driving the car, I turn on the vacuum pump and have a power assisted clutch so I can use the hand clutch. When an Able Body (AB) wants to drive the car, power off the vacuum pump and they will have a "normal" clutch.

There are a couple small problems/unknowns that I may have to experiment with like; are the slave and brake master a 1:1 relationship or will I have to put some kind of lever system between them; how much vacuum will the pump have to pull to get the required force on the clutch lever.

EDIT: could I hook up another clutch master to the booster and disgard the brake master? If I could then I wouldn't have to worry about ratios

thundergrowl
03-08-2006, 07:54 AM
I picked up a slave cylinder this morning. $62 for it new. If I don't go snowmobiling this weekend, and it looks like I won't since the forecast is calling for +8 and rain for Saturday, I'll get the slave connected to the brake master.

Haystack
03-08-2006, 09:57 AM
why would you need an electric vacum pump? why not just tap onto another one? dont the t/c's have the same setup for vacum?

thundergrowl
03-08-2006, 10:18 AM
why would you need an electric vacum pump?

The idea for the electric vacuum pump is so I have control over the vacuum. I can adjust the vacuum pressure by adjusting the voltage to the pump to give a lighter or heavier clutch feal or I could turn it off when someone who has the use of their legs wants to drive the car.

I probably will use the vacuum from the cruise control for testing purposes.

Thunder Chicken
03-08-2006, 08:46 PM
Don't forget that shifting under boost could be a problem without a pump, too - even if you have a reservoir you'd probably use up the reserve with one or two applications.

thundergrowl
03-31-2006, 08:49 AM
I tackled the handcontrols again last night and made a couple small tweeks. I adjusted a couple levers and pivot points, I hooked up the trottle cable, and connected the clutch cable.

With that done I managed to pull the clutch lever with one hand, start the car and moved it forward about a foot using the handcontrols. I know that's not a BIG accomplishment, but it was the first time I moved the car.

These handcontrols will work but it will take a little more trial and error and a little bit more money...but IT WILL WORK. :) Then I'll focus on the power assist.

CougarSE
03-31-2006, 10:30 AM
That is awsome dude! It is a BIG accomplishment!

thundergrowl
04-02-2006, 02:56 PM
Thanks Claude!

Here are a couple pictures of the handcontrols as they are right now.

http://205.251.38.200:8080/images/TC/picture%20015_TN.jpg
The clutch cable is connected by the bolt on the right, the lever pivots on the bolt to the left and the rod is connected to the clutch pedal through 2 snowmobile tierod ends.
http://205.251.38.200:8080/images/TC/picture%20016_TN.jpg

Here is tha master cylinder and clutch slave I'm going to be using for the power assist.

http://205.251.38.200:8080/images/TC/picture%20017_TN.jpg

Tbird232ci
04-02-2006, 05:19 PM
Dude, i have to give you major props.

Im downright sick of people who are disabled bitching and complaining about "i cant do this", "i cant do that", when it takes a little extra effort.

You have my respect for taking it into your own hands, and doing something about it.

thundergrowl
04-02-2006, 06:34 PM
taking it into your own hands, and doing something about it.

I do that a lot :rollin: :rollin:

Thanks!

EDIT: About 10 years ago I came up with this idea...

http://205.251.38.200:8080/images/Snowblower/Snowblower2.JPG

That idea was born out of frustration trying to get the stepson to clear the driveway. I got an award for that...along with building a fence around the backyard and chopping my own firewood. Actually, that award was for the positive image I was conveying to my neighbours. One of my neighbours was so impressed he contacted the CPA.

http://205.251.38.200:8080/images/TC/picture%20018_TN.jpg

ThunderbirdSport302
04-02-2006, 07:06 PM
That's awesome, my hat is off to you.
:headbang:

and to think sometimes I wanna give up on an idea because of my ankle, or at least put it off for a while...

CougarSE
04-05-2006, 02:31 PM
Hmm, I see. If you move the fulcrum(sp?) you will gain mechanical advatage but you will have about twice the needed travel of the cable.

thundergrowl
04-05-2006, 02:53 PM
Hmm, I see. If you move the fulcrum(sp?) you will gain mechanical advatage but you will have about twice the needed travel of the cable.

That's right! There is 1" of travel on the cable and the pedal needs to go down 6". The clutch lever moves 3" so the overall effect is I have to pull twice the force with my hand than I would have to use to push in the pedal. 45lb through 6" for the pedal and 90lb through 3" for the lever. Taking into account any losses in the lever system, such as friction and bending, means that the number is closer to 100lb.

I picked up a flaring tool last night to start on the hydraulic lines. All I need now is some fittings, tubing, and a tube bender.

The next step is to connect the three lines together from the brake master cylinder and connect them to the slave. Then I will see how far I will have to push in the master plunger to get the slave to move through it's full travel of 0.5".

With that information I can figure out any leverage mechinism that may be needed to connect the first slave to the brake master. I wouldn't be luck enough for it to be a 1:1 relation :( What I mean by that is full travel on the master will result in full travel on the slave.

thundergrowl
04-22-2006, 03:06 PM
The last part of the puzzle is in the mail. FordTruckFreeek sent it today. Hopefully i'll get back at this project in a week or so.

thundergrowl
04-24-2006, 07:43 AM
I snuck the TC out for a ride around the 'hood yesterday. The handcontrols worked good but they still need the power assist and a few other tweeks. I got it up to 3rd going down my street. :)

Ifixyawata
04-24-2006, 08:03 AM
Wow! I must congratulate you. It's been a while since I looked at this thread and I'm pleasantly surprised to see you have a working prototype!

CougarSE
04-24-2006, 09:16 AM
I got it up to 3rd going down my street. :)

Did you get it into boost? :D

thundergrowl
04-24-2006, 09:20 AM
LOL no! I'm not that brave...yet!

CougarSE
04-24-2006, 10:11 AM
I have an Idea here thundergrowl! You should have a passenger ride with you and video tape you using the hand controlls. I think everyone hear would absolutely love to see your work and craftmanship.

thundergrowl
04-24-2006, 11:04 AM
I was planning on that when I have the power assist completed.

TurboCoupe50
04-24-2006, 07:10 PM
Paul you're absolutely awesome.... My hat is off to you :bowdown: (OK next time I wear one)... As for getting into the boost, just get it rolling good in 1st and nail it, it'll put you back in the seat quick enough....

Yea I wanna see it in actual operation... Gotta show it to the wife, who whines she can't drive a stick... IMHO she's just too lazy to want to learn, since it puts bit of thought in the process... Does seem as we age the novelty wears off, I don't enjoy it as much as I once did( But I really did enjoy the drive down to NC in your car)...

Thunder Chicken
04-24-2006, 10:46 PM
Gotta show it to the wife, who whines she can't drive a stick... IMHO she's just too lazy to want to learn, since it puts bit of thought in the process... If you value your marriage, don't even try to teach her. Women can become extremely cranky when they discover they don't know how to drive :nono:

thundergrowl
04-25-2006, 06:19 AM
If you value your marriage, don't even try to teach her. Women can become extremely cranky when they discover they don't know how to drive :nono:
Words to live by! When my wife's winter beater (automatic) broke down this winter I wanted her to drive the stepsons manual shift car. Oh man! Did she ever get cranky :( I ended up fixing up the automatic.

:deal: I promise, when the power assist is complete, I will do a video of me driving the car.

TurboCoupe50
04-25-2006, 07:21 PM
If you value your marriage, don't even try to teach her. Women can become extremely cranky when they discover they don't know how to drive :nono:

Yea actually already been there, done that... I dunno if the marrage could stand another go-round... Advice taken, better to let it rest... I used to tease her, saying she should have a handicapped license... :nono:

I did let her try to drive the Cobra Jet(in a parking lot), but when she realized the effort it takes to turn the wheel(it does not have P/S) she soon said "the Hell with this"... Of course it doesn't steer to bad... IF it is rolling. But to get it to move, you have to get it in the right gear and let out the clutch... That's about the only thing i miss about the EX, she could drive a stick with the best of them... Never owned a automatic till we'd been married about 5 years..

I did teach both daughters to drive a stick, and they were very good at it. The younger one could even shift without using the clutch, once it was rolling in first gear(it's actually fairly easy once you're in 2nd, but 1st to 2nd can be tricky)...

thundergrowl
05-04-2006, 07:35 AM
I got the last part in the mail yesterday. Work will begin on the power assist Saturday...most likely. Anyone want to drop by and give me a hand? Anyone? ahh never mind! :(

TurboCoupe50
05-04-2006, 05:21 PM
Anyone want to drop by and give me a hand? Anyone? ahh never mind! :(

I'd be glad to, but there is this little issue of 2200 miles...

Funky Cricket
05-09-2006, 03:41 PM
ooooo. can't wait to see it.. you've made some real progress.. MORE PICS! heheh

thundergrowl
05-10-2006, 07:03 AM
Progress is slower than I wish. I've been laid up for the past week and can't spend as much time on this project as I wanted. I'll have some more pictures in the next couple days.

Funky Cricket
05-10-2006, 12:43 PM
still, that is one cool set up. you should check patents or something, you have put alot of hard work into this, maybe even be able to sell the design or something!

either way, pics would be sweet, i'm dully (sp?) impressed with the results (and that your hand strength is enough to pull that)

turbo83coupe
05-12-2006, 04:08 PM
okay,I made a big mistake of not keeping up with this thread! Good job! my hat is off to you as well!!! I am going to start watching this thread regularly! cant wait to see a video! That is a job more than well done!!

Frank M

kingcars
05-12-2006, 04:59 PM
This is the first time I've checked out this thread; I'm very impressed! Great work; can't wait to see the final product in action!

thundergrowl
05-21-2006, 09:54 AM
Another problem solved! In order to put the powerbooster in the trunk I have to plumb the hydraulic lines from the clutch master to the trunk and back to the slave on the transmission. With the hydraulic lines being plastic I didn't know how to join them. I was told I could use 5/16 brake lines and use compression joints. I wasn't too crazy about that idea. My mechanic dropped by to have a look at it. Anyway, here's what we came up with...

http://205.251.38.200:8080/images/carparts/picture002.jpg

This is the fitting that goes into the slave cylinder and a regular single flare brake fitting silver soldered together.

This week I'll be taking the car to the garage and getting the lines run from the cylinders to the trunk. Once they are in the trunk I'll bring the car back home to get the powerbooster hooked up and tweeked to give the desired effect. Here is what I have mocked up so far.
http://205.251.38.200:8080/images/carparts/picture003.jpg


http://205.251.38.200:8080/images/carparts/picture004.jpg

I still have to come up with a way to physically connect the slave to the brake master so I only have the slave C-clamped in place for now.

Haystack
05-21-2006, 12:11 PM
I am not sure how much I would trust solder, but I guess if it works. Good luck.

Tbird232ci
05-21-2006, 12:21 PM
I am not sure how much I would trust solder, but I guess if it works. Good luck.
You ever try to separate house pipes? Most house plumbing is soldered together, and the only issue they have is corrosion from age. Solder should do well.

thundergrowl
05-21-2006, 01:38 PM
It's not just solder, it's silver solder. It's much stronger than the tin/lead stuff used in plumbing.

Thunder Chicken
05-21-2006, 09:55 PM
I am not sure how much I would trust solder, but I guess if it works. Good luck.

You ever see the line on a stock TC master/slave cylinder? If they can hold up, I'm sure silver solder will.

Thundergrowl: Cool mockup, but you ruined a perfectly good bed frame :hick:

thundergrowl
05-22-2006, 06:58 AM
Thundergrowl: Cool mockup, but you ruined a perfectly good bed frame :hick:

Thanks Thunder Chicken. The bed frame was already ruin. The holes the rivots went through were streached and the head board was folding in over the bed :hick:

Like you said, this is just the mockup. If it works good this summer, I'll get Enos the machinist to make a "pretty" frame for me over the winter so I'll have it to put back in again next spring. If this doesn't work the TC will get the 5.0/AOD next winter.

TurboCoupe50
05-22-2006, 08:29 PM
The holes the rivots went through were streached and the head board was folding in over the bed :hick:



So how'd that happen????

thundergrowl
05-23-2006, 06:39 AM
So how'd that happen???? Ask your wife :D

TurboCoupe50
05-23-2006, 05:14 PM
Ask your wife :D

No problem there.... But maybe the EX...

thundergrowl
05-23-2006, 05:43 PM
:giggle: Truth is it's got to do with being in a wheelchair. Have you ever tried to pull up your pants while you were setting on your arse? I had a fix for that problem - I would bounce on the bed and while my arse was in the air I would pull up my pants. It worked great and was very fast but it wasn't very good on the frame rails...especially after I topped the 200lb mark :) Now I just rock side to side, lifting one check at a time, until I have them up.


BTW. I just hung up the phone from talking to my mechanic. He said he is very busy and not to come near him for at least 2weeks...something about a Chrysler Concorde 2.7 being off timing...I think I'll try it myself one night this week.

Thunder Chicken
05-23-2006, 10:08 PM
:giggle: Truth is it's got to do with being in a wheelchair. Have you ever tried to pull up your pants while you were setting on your arse? I had a fix for that problem - I would bounce on the bed and while my arse was in the air I would pull up my pants. It worked great and was very fast but it wasn't very good on the frame rails...especially after I topped the 200lb mark :) Now I just rock side to side, lifting one check at a time, until I have them up.


I actually really did LOL reading (and picturing) that :rollin:

thundergrowl
05-24-2006, 12:25 PM
I'm glad you enjoyed :)

I was talking with another mechanic friend and he is going to run the lines for me tomorrow. Hopefully I'll have the car back by Friday so I can fiddle with the power assist on Saturday.

I have a sports car tour on Sunday. It would be nice if I could take the TC insteed of the Mustang. More than likely I'll be taking the Mustang :(

thundergrowl
05-26-2006, 05:32 PM
I got the car back from the garage. They ran the lines from the clutch master to the trunk and then back to the slave. Tomorrow I have find the other fitting I had made up (still at the garage) and to hook up the power assist.

thundergrowl
06-06-2006, 10:21 AM
Time for an update! I've been working on this when I get a chance and I've got it all hooked up. :sawzall: :welder: I've connected the power assist slave to the brake master cylinder with a lever system that results in 3/8" travel on the slave producing a little over 3/4" travel on the brake master.

But I've run into a problem. I'm not getting nearly enough travel on the clutch slave to disengage (or is it engage? IDK) the clutch.

First, I thought it was air in the lines. I bleed the lines and managed to get 1/16" of travel on the clutch slave. Not nearly enough to work. I need 1/2" of travel to work the clutch.

I've got a couple ideas on what's going on. First, if you look at the picture of the power assist unit, you'll see that I've looped the front brake line back into the front master cylinder.
http://205.251.38.200:8080/images/carparts/picture004.jpg
I think that maybe there is still air in there that is compressing when I activate the system and is preventing enough presure/fluid to come out of the rear master cylinder to press the clutch. To fix this, I'm going to cut the looped line and connect one end to the rear master cylinder and send the other to the clutch slave. At least this way I can bleed the system and be pretty sure there is no air in there to compress.

Another thing I'm going to try, if the above doesn't work, is replace the power assist slave cylinder with the one FordTruckFreeek sent me. I'll measure them first but I'm pretty sure the original FTF slave has a smaller bore than the parts store replacement I'm using now. A smaller bore on the slave will mean I'll get more travel on the brake master cylinder and, therefore, more travel on the clutch slave.

Am I on the right track? Any ideas would be appreicated. :)

Thunder Chicken
06-06-2006, 10:46 AM
Sounds good to me - I was gonna suggest a smaller cylinder until I read the last paragraph :D

Have you considered using an old, 60's-style master cylinder - one with only one cylinder (non-split system). It would likely have a larger bore (you could use a bbigger bore in the master for more fluid flow) and would only have the one line, so there would be no need to loop anything

Funky Cricket
06-06-2006, 11:02 AM
Sounds good to me - I was gonna suggest a smaller cylinder until I read the last paragraph :D

Have you considered using an old, 60's-style master cylinder - one with only one cylinder (non-split system). It would likely have a larger bore (you could use a bbigger bore in the master for more fluid flow) and would only have the one line, so there would be no need to loop anything


agreed, but maybe use something to narrow the bore, or a regulator? You are going to lose travel on the second loop, even if it is just feeding itself, you still have to move that fluid around..???

either way. looking good.. keep up the good work and don't get discouraged.

thundergrowl
06-06-2006, 12:34 PM
Have you considered using an old, 60's-style master cylinder

Yes, I already considered the older one line/non-split but I wanted to experiment with parts I already have on the shelf. I.E. I'M CHEAP :) If I can get something working but need a little more travel then I'll consider spending more money. Also, I want to be sure I can drive the manual with handcontrols before I spend a wad of money making a nice system. After all, if this doesn't work I'll need the money for the 5.0/AOD swap.


agreed, but maybe use something to narrow the bore, or a regulator? You are going to lose travel on the second loop, even if it is just feeding itself, you still have to move that fluid around..???

either way. looking good.. keep up the good work and don't get discouraged.

I'm not sure what you mean!

Here's what I'm thinking: The clutch master (on the firewall) only pushes out a certain amount of fluid determined by it's bore(B) and the stroke(S) of the piston. 3.14x((B/2)^2)xS=displacement of hydraulic fluid(V)....This amount of fluid(V) moves the piston in the slave 0.25" and it has a bore of 1.25" so V=0.3 cubic inches. So if I put 0.3 cubic inches of fluid into a 1" bore cylinder then the stroke will be = 0.38".

Through the lever system I have set up, the stroke of the stock slave will result in an extra 0.4" on the stroke of the master cylinder...or it will go from 0.75" to 1.15".

A 0.75" bore in the master cylinder then with the lower 0.75" stroke, mensioned above, will result in V of the master cylinder = 0.33 cubic inch which should result in a 0.42" stroke in the clutch slave which is not quite enough - 0.5" is needed. If I go with the higher 1.15 stroke I'll get 0.51 cubic inch resulting in 0.65" on the slave which should be plenty.

thundergrowl
06-07-2006, 08:34 PM
I bleed the lines and managed to get 1/16" of travel on the clutch slave.

I reconfigured the brake lines tonight and bleed the master cylinder. I hooked it back into the system and I got a 1/8" movement on the clutch slave. If my math is right I should be getting almost 7/16".

I think there must still be air in the system. I've never bleed a brake master before so I'm not sure I'm getting the job done. I'll ask my mechanic to drop by and help me bleed the system...hopefully tomorrow night. This is starting to get frustrating. :mad:

Haystack
06-07-2006, 10:30 PM
cant you move the rod out more to get more travel?

thundergrowl
06-08-2006, 07:15 AM
cant you move the rod out more to get more travel?

Right now I have the lever system set up for the most travel on the power assist master with the smallest movement on the power assist slave. The only thing I can do now to get more travel on the clutch slave is to change the slave(s) to one with a smaller bore and/or change the master(s) to one with a bigger bore.

How much will the fluid compress in the small brake lines over a 12-14' run? It shouldn't be that much, should it?

MasterBlaster
06-08-2006, 08:16 AM
Don't forget that at rest the master's rubber piston cups are behind the internal ports leading up to the reservoir. They have to be, to allow the fluid to flow down when brake pads wear, and up when retracting the pistons to replace pads or shoes.

You won't get any fluid going to the clutch slave until the master's cups have moved past the ports. Not a lot of movement, but probably measureable.

thundergrowl
06-08-2006, 08:35 AM
Good point but we shouldn't be talking a great amount. I would guess 1/16" to 1/8". I was under esitmating the travel on the master to reflect that. The actual travel is a 16th or 2 over 3/4". The master with nothing connect will travel a full 2".

If the mechanic doesn't drop by tonight, I'll change out the 1.25" slave in favour of the 1" slave. Maybe I'll do it anyway. That will get me 1.15" out of a possible 2"

TurboCoupe50
06-08-2006, 04:08 PM
IF you T the two lines from the Master cylinder to the slave you will be moving double the fluid... Think about that one....

I breezed through the last few posts, so if that has been discussed just ignore me...

thundergrowl
06-08-2006, 04:35 PM
I think that is effectively what I have done now. There are two lines coming out of the front master and one coming from the back master. I have the back line connected to one of the front lines and the other front line going to the clutch slave. I've studied this site (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/master-brake1.htm) and I think I have a good understanding of how the master cylinder works. Maybe I should just hydrolock the rear master?

EDIT: Added picture

Haystack
06-08-2006, 06:49 PM
I think even with looping them, you are still only moving half of the fluid.

If you tie the two together and then go from well pretend a 1/2" and 1/2" then it would be a 3/4" or so line.

TurboCoupe50
06-08-2006, 09:19 PM
And they say a picture is worth a 1000 words, yet I missed the loop(guess I really didn't look at it)...

OK Paul I see what you are saying... As long as there is no check valve(doubtful) that restricts the flow back into the chamber that should be fine...

I have one of those M/C from the old grey Sport I'll check it out in the next day or two...

thundergrowl
06-09-2006, 11:37 AM
My plans for last night fell through. The mechanic has a bad back so I decided to swap in the 1" bore slave in place of the 1.25" bore slave. I had taken apart the 1" slave earlier and I was going to put it back together last night. However, I couldn't find the clip that holds it all together. I ended up cleaning up the garage in hopes of finding the clip but no luck.

Now I don't know what to do next.

Funky Cricket
06-09-2006, 12:20 PM
just don't get discouraged. you are making great progress on something complete unique. you'll get there and be happy you did. like everything done on this site, it just make take some work to get there!!!

rah rah!

and, hot damn, i wanna see it up and working now, after all this work you have put into it, you can't stop when your so close!!! hehe.

I was just saying that if you had the line reduced, similar to a rear disk conversion, that you would get the etra movement of the fluid needed for some extra distance.

also, the fluid won't compress at all, it is the other compents, lines, rubber gaskets and potential air in the system.

if you can get it back together, I think ensuring that all air is bled will be the most important part, just alittle air will make a huge impact on how much your final movement will be.

edit: can't type.

thundergrowl
06-09-2006, 12:33 PM
Thanks for the encouragement! :)

I think I'll look for the clip a bit more tonight. If I can't find it tonight, I'll check the used parts stores tomorrow. If I could find a slave with a 1" bore or smaller it would be great.

thundergrowl
06-10-2006, 02:49 PM
Hello :D !

EDIT: Today I got up and went right to the parts store. I found a clutch slave with a 3/4" bore. I also picked up a vacuum line and a couple tees. I teed the lines like TurboCoupe50 suggest above and ran the vacuum line to the tree. I started up the car and I got 1.75" of travel out of a possible 2" at the brake master. I got under the car and measured the full 0.5" needed on the clutch slave...and I still haven't bleed the clutch since I teed the lines.

Now I've only got two small problems to overcome: First, I need just a little more leverage with the handcontrols. When I have the clutch handle full on, I still need another 1/4-1/2 inch on the clutch pedal. Second, I need to figure out how I'm going to push in the clutch to start the car when there is no vacuum to help push in the clutch. Maybe tomorrow I'll get these things fixed and get the car back off the jack stands.

Bird351
06-10-2006, 06:39 PM
Totally stupid and uninformed stab in the dark here, but what about the whole Hydroboost brake thing from the Marks? No vacuum needed, apparently.. and while it may not be the same thing you need, I often hear a pump pressurizing the ABS system when I put the key on. Could some of those parts be adapted?

Or could you just have your vacuum pump kick on with key on? (recall you mentioning a vacuum pump before)

thundergrowl
06-10-2006, 07:56 PM
I had talked about an electric vacuum pump but I haven't found one yet. I think that would be the way to go. Like you said, all I would have to do is power up the pump and let the vacuum build pressure before I start the car.

I don't know how the hydroboost would be any better than I have now. Wouldn't you also have to start the car before you got boost...since it is powered by the power steering pump?

I had also thought about the ABS system but I don't know enough about it to adapt it.

slamedcat
06-10-2006, 08:04 PM
Kinda pricey but it could work.

http://www.carolinaclassictrucks.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CCTI&Product_Code=MPB-AC2724K

thundergrowl
06-10-2006, 08:08 PM
That's exactly what I was looking for but it is expensive. By the time I get it in my hands it'll cost me close to $500 or more

Bird351
06-10-2006, 08:09 PM
What I'm getting at is the possibility of using a hydroboost type system, but pressuring it on key-on like the ABS system does. It would be essentially the same thing as the vacuum boost/vacuum pump at key-on thing, but with fluid instead of vacuum. At least in the case of the hydroboost/ABS stuff, many of us should have spare parts we could send you if you went that route. (or at least I will when I tear the '88 Mark apart eventually.. and others may have the parts laying around)

Like I said, it's a completely uninformed shot in the dark.. and who knows, you're probably better off with a vacuum pump at key-on if you can find one. (a vacuum canister too? *shrug*)

Haystack
06-10-2006, 08:14 PM
i'll bet with some bleeding you can get it far enough. Make sure it is sturdy, it could suck getting stuck downtown because of a bent rod or linkage(I have had that problem in my van!). See if you can get hardend peices so they wont bend.

thundergrowl
06-11-2006, 06:24 AM
What I'm getting at is the possibility of using a hydroboost type system, but pressuring it on key-on like the ABS system does.

Now I got ya! That's a pretty good idea and it will likely cost less than the electric vacuum pump. I'll have to keep is in mind in case the vacuum stuff doesn't work out.


Make sure it is sturdy, it could suck getting stuck downtown because of a bent rod or linkage(I have had that problem in my van!). See if you can get hardend peices so they wont bend.

I plan on intensitively testing this around the neighbourhood. Hopefully, I'll have all the bugs out of the system and I can trust the system fully before I get in a tight spot. Remember, I still have to learn to drive a manual shift.

MasterBlaster
06-11-2006, 07:43 AM
Hydroboost? $500 Vacuum pumps? Just to activate a teeny little electrical switch attached to the clutch pedal? How about bypassing it with a $1.00 push button, and making sure it's in neutral first, like the old days?

thundergrowl
06-11-2006, 03:26 PM
I went back at it again today. Things were going good. I bleed the line and was adjusting the handcontrols when I noticed that it was getting harder to pull the clutch lever. I discovered that the vacuum hose was collasped(sp?). I'll have to pick up another vacuum line tomorrow.

Funky Cricket
06-12-2006, 12:31 PM
Hydroboost? $500 Vacuum pumps? Just to activate a teeny little electrical switch attached to the clutch pedal? How about bypassing it with a $1.00 push button, and making sure it's in neutral first, like the old days?


exactly what I was thinking.. and make sure your e-brake works! oh wait.. convert to a hand e-brake!

I was thinking this weekend.. what about an electric motor.. using a "dimmer" slide or something similar to move an electric push rod? I would have to see what kind of stuff there is out there.. might be even more difficult than what you are currently doing..

getting close though, keep it up! :bowdown:

Haystack
06-12-2006, 12:53 PM
If it were me, I would have looked into computer contolling the clutch. It would have been easier I think. Alot of the robots use computer controled ford window motor's.

Funky Cricket
06-12-2006, 01:37 PM
i don't think the window motors would move quick enough. it would need to be something that would have an "instant" response to the movement of the clutch lever... and match it's movement over the range allowed, thus controlling the clutch...

that might get tricky.. it's possible.. but then you need to burn a board for control, or get a small computer to control it. once the hydrolics are up, they are more fail safe I think.

Haystack
06-12-2006, 01:48 PM
true, but I am working on throwing a computer in there anyways. I wouldnt have it follow the movement of the clutch, I would just have setting already. One for slow take off, one for a hill and one for a quick launch. Atleast I would like to. You can get motors with gobs of torque on them. My dad has some that I cannot turn by hand when they have power, and that is with a big knob on it too.

I dunno, prolly more problems then its worth. Imagine having to reboot windows cause you killed it at a light.

thundergrowl
06-12-2006, 06:24 PM
Tonight I replaced the vacuum line with a brake line - the bigger one. I took the car out for a try. It seemed like the first few times I used the clutch, it was comparatively easy but got harder each time I used it. Do I need a bigger vacuum line? Maybe a vacuum canister?

Also, "comparatively easy" is not really easy enough. Before the power assist, with just the handcontrols, I would have to pull on the clutch lever with two hands. Now, I can pull on it with one hand but after half a dozen times my hand would start to cramp. Are there any adjustments I can make to the brake booster to increase the assist?

Thunder Chicken
06-12-2006, 09:45 PM
I know that with some brake boosters they dump so much vacuum with each application that if you pump the brakes repeatedly you can actually stall the engine. With fuel injection you'll not likely stall the engine (the IAC would simply close up to compensate) but the booster might not be able to build up vacuum again fast enough - especially a turbocharged engine. A large vacuum reservoir mounted near the booster combined with a large vacuum hose (at least 3/8" ID) would be the best bet, aside from using a vacuum pump.

I'm actually thinking a hydroboost setup might be the answer if you can't get the vacuum to regenerate fast enough. Most diesel pickups have hydroboost with a "spool" - a spring loaded reservoir that maintains pressure in the brake booster in case of engine stall. The spool is designed to provide power brakes for a couple of applications, much like the check valve and reservoir in a vacuum system. Using one of these may eliminate the no engine/no assist problem you mentioned about hydroboost earlier.

thundergrowl
06-16-2006, 07:58 AM
UPDATE: I was getting a good bit of flex in the power assist bracketry so I've taken it out and had it reinforced. Plus I had the atachment bracket for the slave reworked. I reinstalled it last night.

There is relatively no flex in the bracketry now and I think I've reach the most effecient mechanical setup. I.E. I think the clutch handle is as easy as I can get it so that the clutch slave travels in enough to change the gears. Although, I would still like to get the clutch handle effort 3-5lbs lighter.

The next thing I'm going to look at is the vacuum line. I'm going to take Thunder Chicken's advice and get a 3/8 I/D vacuum line on there. Right now I have the 5/16 brake line on there. That's 5/16 O/D isn't it? The mechanic who installed the clutch lines also suggested I take the vacuum right from the manifold rather from where I'm getting it on the vacuum tree.

But that won't be until next week. This weekend I'm going 'round da bay' for my fathers 85th birthday(tomorrow)...and fathers day.

Funky Cricket
06-16-2006, 10:38 AM
happy father's day to you and yours, and specially to your dad for that age!! whoo hoo..

sounds like you are getting closer. how hard do you think the motion on the clutch lever is now? any guesses or have you measured it?

Haystack
06-16-2006, 12:22 PM
If you tap it right off of the manifold, then you will get more vacum

thundergrowl
06-20-2006, 07:02 PM
happy father's day to you and yours, and specially to your dad for that age!! whoo hoo..

sounds like you are getting closer. how hard do you think the motion on the clutch lever is now? any guesses or have you measured it?

Thanks man! It was a great weekend. Dad really enjoyed himself. We had an open house for all his friends and family. I would guess about 60-70 poeple when through the house between noon and 10PM. Some only stayed a hour or so while others were there for 3-4 hours but it seemed like there was 20 or so there constantly. He had a visit from the Mayor, a couple councilors, the fire chief and the local member of the house of assembly. His 87 year old sister was there. She's the oldest.

Tonight I replaced the vacuum line with a 3/8 I/D line. Either it made a noticible difference or my hand is getting stronger. :)

I thing I'll practise with it like it is and maybe some day down the road I'll upgrade the hydraulic line to the clutch slave to 5/16" to improve fluid flow.

thundergrowl
06-22-2006, 07:56 PM
I took my first real ride in the TC tonight. I drove it to our usual Thursday night lot night...and I only stalled it once.

CougarSE
06-22-2006, 09:12 PM
Thats awsome! so did you get "riders cramp" or uh "shifters cramp"?

Warbird9
06-22-2006, 10:25 PM
Dude, hat's off to you! Your definately an inspiration! No doubt!:bowdown: :headbang: :cheers:

thundergrowl
06-23-2006, 07:12 AM
Thanks! My left hand did get a bit sore from squeezing the clutch lever. On the way home I noticed that the clutch was feeling harder to pull. I did figured out what was causing it...my sneaker had moved forward, under the clutch pedal and was rubbing the pedal when I pulled the lever. Moving my foot fixed that :)

I must admit, I did feel very proud of myself out riding around in that TC last night. That one ride was over a year in the making.
With my determination (read stubbornness) and a lot of help and ideas from my virtual and real friends (thanks) we managed to get a working system. Being the perfectionist that I am, there is still room for improvement but I'll worry about that later.

The total cost of the modifications was in the $200-$300 range. Was it worth it? Hell yes!

P.S. Video to come once I get a little better at shifting (remember, I've never driven a manual before) and I find someone to operate the camera while I'm driving since my hands are too busy steering and shifting.

Funky Cricket
06-23-2006, 03:29 PM
WWWOOO HHOOOO..
congrats!!!

way to go! Now go practice your burn outs! muhahahaha

TurboCoupe50
07-02-2006, 07:11 PM
:bowdown: Damn Paul, somehow I missed your updates...

Absoultely outstanding effort... You can be very proud... Myself and I'm sure the other board members are definatly in awe....:bowdown:

Haystack
07-02-2006, 07:41 PM
Yes indeed. I missed the last couple too.

87thunderbirdBlackJack
07-02-2006, 09:16 PM
Paul, your gonna have another award up your sleeve :D

Awesome job man

thundergrowl
07-04-2006, 06:36 AM
Thanks guys! :)

After 22 years of living in a wheelchair, I'm use to finding things that I didn't know how to tackle, people telling me it can't be done, and eventually finding a way to solve the problem. (I got to say that I got nothing only help and encouragement from the people on this board - some may have thought I was crazy but they didn't say anything) It reminds me of someones signature on another board "Those who say it can't be done shouldn't fück with the one who is doing it." :)

My neighbour already said he was going to call the local newspaper but I told him not to do it. I don't desire any unwanted attention.

thundergrowl
07-06-2006, 06:39 AM
Wanna see the video? (http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showpost.php?p=92449&postcount=1)

Funky Cricket
08-17-2006, 01:36 PM
WOOHOOO!

looking good... still running well. been away from the boards for a bit so i couldn't get you a congrats in a timely manner,
and you still have penty of summer left to enjoy it!

now it is just time to pretty it up a bit! hehehe
(your work is never done)

thundergrowl
08-17-2006, 01:59 PM
now it is just time to pretty it up a bit! hehehe
(your work is never done)

Thanks man! I've already gotten a start on that. (http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=9758) :)

thundergrowl
09-22-2006, 12:57 PM
OK! Some people on another board have been critizing my handcontrol design. Since I have to either let go the wheel or steer with my left thumb while shifting - since my left hand is holding the clutch in - they are concern that it's not safe to drive like that. While I don't feel unsafe while I'm driving the car I can see thier point.

So, I need an idea that will lock the clutch on while I'm shifting so I can hold the wheel with the other hand...something like a ball point pen - push the button and the point comes out, push it again and it goes back.

This solution would have to be easily activated and deactivated. I'm thinking I pull on the clutch and there is a click that holds the clutch about 9/10 the way in, pull the clutch lever the other 1/10 and then it can be let out.

Keep in mind that my clutch lever is from a Harley Davidson

Ideas???

How's this idea. My uncle had a hydraulic lock on his oil truck that when he flipped the lever would lock the hydraulic brakes on. I think it was called a micro lock. Is there an electronic controled micro lock that I could put on the hydraulic line at the transmission with a micro switch on the clutch lever that when pushed activates the micro lock. Pushed again deactivates the hydrolock?

The sad thing is, even if I had this feature, I don't know if I would use it. But it would be a nice to have item to satisify the crickets (misspelled on purpose). :)

ipsd
10-03-2006, 09:40 AM
Thundergrowl that I think is called a linelock used in 1/4 drag cars used to keep the front brakes locked while getting the car ready to launch. Get it wraped up, and wait for the light hit the switch and your off. Hope this helps. I would just love to see the looks on the parts guys faces when you come in buy your parts and then go get into the driver seat of your car and take off. I bet there mouths are hanging open. Anyhow maybe you could also use a liner actuator. It is a very powerfull electric motor made to move things that need alot of force. Then all you would need is to use a push button switch to make it work.

thundergrowl
10-03-2006, 01:11 PM
Yip! That's exactly what I'm looking for (http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=10002&catalogIdentifier=Jegs_Direct&categoryId=21387&parentCategoryId=10159). Thanks!

Haystack
12-13-2010, 12:51 AM
Any update on this? I know you still stop in from time to time.

Kitz Kat
12-13-2010, 01:57 PM
If it were a hyd. clutch it could be done simply.

Haystack
12-13-2010, 08:39 PM
It was, I am just curious to see how it ended up, and if it still works. I accidentally stumbled onto this thread while doing a search.

Thunder Chicken
12-13-2010, 09:32 PM
If it were a hyd. clutch it could be done simply.

It's not as simple as you might think. You don't quite get the same leverage with your hand that you do with your foot (and it takes quite a bit of force to move the clutch). That and the fact that your hands are also steering, shifting, and controlling the brake and the gas, it doesn't leave a lot of "bandwidth" (for lack of a better term) for clutching as well...